Leaking in upper unit

[buttercarp]

Hi, just want to know that if the upper floor of condo leaks, the owner in the upper floor has to foot the bill according to the by-laws, unless he can proof otherwise.
So who engages the contractor?
The upper floor or lower floor?
If the upper floor owner foots the bill, but later the problem is not rectified and the contractor needs to do more repairs, can the upper floor owner claim back the expenses from the lower floor for the previous repair?

TIA.

[Astronotus oscellatus]

Hi, just want to know that if the upper floor of condo leaks, the owner in the upper floor has to foot the bill according to the by-laws, unless he can proof otherwise.
So who engages the contractor?
The upper floor or lower floor?
If the upper floor owner foots the bill, but later the problem is not rectified and the contractor needs to do more repairs, can the upper floor owner claim back the expenses from the lower floor for the previous repair?

TIA.

Upper floor engages and pays for contractor.
Claim from lower floor? Me thinks not.

[ysyap]

Upper floor must foot the bill unless can proof that the leak is from the wall and not the ceiling. If subsequent leak occurs again, then upper floor owner must rectify again at own cost. From experience, the best way to rectify persistent leak problem is to re-waterproof the floor of the upper floor unit again. Then again must be able to proof that its coz of waterproof and not from external walls, etc...

[buttercarp]

Upper floor engages and pays for contractor.
Claim from lower floor? Me thinks not.

So if the upper unit hires a crappy contractor who does not know how to diagnose the problem, then have to keep paying and paying till fault is rectified?

[Astronotus oscellatus]

So if the upper unit hires a crappy contractor who does not know how to diagnose the problem, then have to keep paying and paying till fault is rectified?

Yes. Moral of the story, choose a good contractor.

[buttercarp]

Yes. Moral of the story, choose a good contractor.

Thanks.

[Rosy]

So if the upper unit hires a crappy contractor who does not know how to diagnose the problem, then have to keep paying and paying till fault is rectified?

yes.

for HDB flats, i believe it is still based on 50/50 payment

[buttercarp]

Upper floor must foot the bill unless can proof that the leak is from the wall and not the ceiling. If subsequent leak occurs again, then upper floor owner must rectify again at own cost. From experience, the best way to rectify persistent leak problem is to re-waterproof the floor of the upper floor unit again. Then again must be able to proof that its coz of waterproof and not from external walls, etc...

The question is how to proof it is from the external wall or waterproofing problem.
I guess have to wait for a while to diagnose the problem?

[buttercarp]

yes.

for HDB flats, i believe it is still based on 50/50 payment

I know HDB is 50/50.
Then why condo must be 100/0?
It is not like the upper floor purposely go and dig and cause a leak.

[ysyap]

The question is how to proof it is from the external wall or waterproofing problem.
I guess have to wait for a while to diagnose the problem?

Very difficult to diagnose. What I was advised to do was to stop using the bathroom for a week which we suspect is the cause and monitor if there is further leak. But this is an extensive problem coz 1. the leak may not be from bathroom but from the washing bay or the sink area seeping into the floor so leak may persist and if so, we may suspect that bathroom is not the problem. 2. some water may be trapped inside the floor concrete and it takes weeks to completely drain out the residual water so ceasing to use the bathroom does not mean leakage will cease immediately. Really a big headache!

Also, can ask yourself if your condo is old or new and when was the most recent reno done on the kitchen floor? The external walls of the condo may have been repainted recently and if so, then there shouldn't be any water seepage problem from external wall. Can get the expert in for their opinion. A temporary technique is to use grouting, a method which effectively stopped the seepage problem for couple of months (not sure if it can be a permanent answer if seepage is not that bad).

[Rosy]

I know HDB is 50/50.
Then why condo must be 100/0?
It is not like the upper floor purposely go and dig and cause a leak.

i have no answer for you.

[ysyap]

Direct question to Mr Khaw's facebook and see if he will answer...

[chiaberry]

The question is how to proof it is from the external wall or waterproofing problem.
I guess have to wait for a while to diagnose the problem?

If yours is an old condo and the waterproofing has not been renewed for >10 years and the place into which it leaked is directly under your wet area (eg bathroom/kitchen/yard), then very likely it is your waterproofing problem. You might have to stop using your wet area for some weeks and see if the area in the unit below dries out. Once it dries out, you wet the area and see if it leaks into the unit below. If it does, confirmed it's your waterproofing. If it doesn't leak, then it's not likely to be your waterproofing. Unfortunately it may take a long time for it to dry out and in the meantime, you can't wash or bathe in that area.

If you are sure it's not your waterproofing, then get the management office to check the plumbing plans of the unit below to see if they have any pipes running in their ceiling over that area that could leak. Usually your management office have got technicians who could help out with that. If they don't, then..zzzzz

[chiaberry]

yes.

for HDB flats, i believe it is still based on 50/50 payment

The repair cost for the waterproofing in HDB flats is very cheap anyway. Last time my unit was the one below and I paid less than 1K. I am not sure if the unit above also has to pay additional costs on top of that for hacking/tiles etc

[buttercarp]

If yours is an old condo and the waterproofing has not been renewed for >10 years and the place into which it leaked is directly under your wet area (eg bathroom/kitchen/yard), then very likely it is your waterproofing problem. You might have to stop using your wet area for some weeks and see if the area in the unit below dries out. Once it dries out, you wet the area and see if it leaks into the unit below. If it does, confirmed it's your waterproofing. If it doesn't leak, then it's not likely to be your waterproofing. Unfortunately it may take a long time for it to dry out and in the meantime, you can't wash or bathe in that area.

If you are sure it's not your waterproofing, then get the management office to check the plumbing plans of the unit below to see if they have any pipes running in their ceiling over that area that could leak. Usually your management office have got technicians who could help out with that. If they don't, then..zzzzz

Thanks.
The problem is the apparent leak is from the bathtub which is not used.
My maid only washes it once a week.
So I have told my maid to wipe it instead of washing it and not use the tap there.

Direct question to Mr Khaw's facebook and see if he will answer...

Ya hor... good suggestion!

[chiaberry]

Thanks.
The problem is the apparent leak is from the bathtub which is not used.
My maid only washes it once a week.
So I have told my maid to wipe it instead of washing it and not use the tap there.

What a waste of space in your bathroom and the time and efforts of your maid to keep it clean if you are not using the bathtub! Perhaps it's time to renovate your bathroom, get rid of the useless bathtub, redo the floor with waterproofing and convert the space into a nice big shower area or something which could be of use to you eg vanity area. Unless you are thinking of moving away and selling it off. Even if you move away and rent it out, you would need to fix the leakage problem permanently.

[ysyap]

Thanks.
The problem is the apparent leak is from the bathtub which is not used.
My maid only washes it once a week.
So I have told my maid to wipe it instead of washing it and not use the tap there.

Therein lies the intricacy of your problem. Its not just coz the leakage is directly under the bathtub therefore the source of the leak is from the bathtub. It may well flow across the entire bathroom from where the washing basin is or even from the adjacent toilet which may be just beside this unused bathtub. The problem may be bigger than initially perceived. It is always better to engage the experts in to assess the situation.

Btw, is it time for a thorough renovation for your house?

[chiaberry]

Once it starts leaking in one part of the house, other parts will give way in due course. It's a matter of time. I learnt that the hard way (2 big floods in my HDB within a short period of time - lucky never leak into the unit below in spite of having an inch or so of water extending to the living area, the previous contractor must have been **** good) but it showed that pipes around the same age will give way around the same time.

[buttercarp]

Therein lies the intricacy of your problem. Its not just coz the leakage is directly under the bathtub therefore the source of the leak is from the bathtub. It may well flow across the entire bathroom from where the washing basin is or even from the adjacent toilet which may be just beside this unused bathtub. The problem may be bigger than initially perceived. It is always better to engage the experts in to assess the situation.

Btw, is it time for a thorough renovation for your house?

I am quite sure that is unlikely the case cos the pipe from the bathtub drains away to the drainage which is near the shower well which is at the other end of the toilet.
But my hubby thinks it is better to dig up the whole toilet and water proof the whole thing!
Wonder how much that will cost and how long it will take!

Can't wait to move out cos things are falling apart!
My furniture is so old and the paint is peeling everywhere. The curtains are also torn.
Renovating the place is not cost effective although I really like my place very much.

What a waste of space in your bathroom and the time and efforts of your maid to keep it clean if you are not using the bathtub! Perhaps it's time to renovate your bathroom, get rid of the useless bathtub, redo the floor with waterproofing and convert the space into a nice big shower area or something which could be of use to you eg vanity area. Unless you are thinking of moving away and selling it off. Even if you move away and rent it out, you would need to fix the leakage problem permanently.

Yup, lots of wasted space in my place.
I have used the powder room and the bathtub in another room as storage areas.
This bathtub in the master toilet is for my leisure. I sit there and read sometimes and play with my rodent pets there.

[ysyap]

I am quite sure that is unlikely the case cos the pipe from the bathtub drains away to the drainage which is near the shower well which is at the other end of the toilet.
But my hubby thinks it is better to dig up the whole toilet and water proof the whole thing!
Wonder how much that will cost and how long it will take!

Can't wait to move out cos things are falling apart!
My furniture is so old and the paint is peeling everywhere. The curtains are also torn.
Renovating the place is not cost effective although I really like my place very much.



Yup, lots of wasted space in my place.
I have used the powder room and the bathtub in another room as storage areas.
This bathtub in the master toilet is for my leisure. I sit there and read sometimes and play with my rodent pets there.

Well if you are already moving out then forget about renovating if not renting out. Otherwise, still have to rectify it if you still want to rent it out. Then again if you sell, you also can't sell above market value coz your unit is so old. The scary thing is if you rip your toilet apart and the re-waterproof the whole area and the problem is bigger, then you'll have no choice but to spend more le... all the best!!!

[buttercarp]

Well if you are already moving out then forget about renovating if not renting out. Otherwise, still have to rectify it if you still want to rent it out. Then again if you sell, you also can't sell above market value coz your unit is so old. The scary thing is if you rip your toilet apart and the re-waterproof the whole area and the problem is bigger, then you'll have no choice but to spend more le... all the best!!!

In future, the person who buys over my place has to do extensive renovation.
Actually have not decided whether to sell or rent it out. It really depends on the market when my new place is ready.
That's the problem with old homes.....either renovate or spend money over bits and ends.
During my childhood I moved house many times cos my parents motto was never to stay in a house for more than 5 years.

[chiaberry]

hmm....you may have to be prepared to let go your unit for a lot below market value if it is in such a condition. New owner would have to do complete renovation.
Perhaps after you move into your new place, get the renovation done, then rent it out. The market for resale condos does not look good going forward for the next few years. If yours is a FH, it might be worth holding onto it long term.

If it's a 3-bedder condo around 1500 to 2000 sq ft, you should be able to do a nice reno for around 150 to 200K or even less if your tiles/fixtures/fittings are quite simple and basic. However if you need to equip/furnish a new house, you would be quite tight on $$$.

[buttercarp]

hmm....you may have to be prepared to let go your unit for a lot below market value if it is in such a condition. New owner would have to do complete renovation.

Aiya... ai lai mai suah.
Not in a hurry to sell.
Anyway for old homes, it is better for new owner to do up the place according to his liking. So renovate also may not be useful cos they will tear it down in the end.

[buttercarp]

hmm....you may have to be prepared to let go your unit for a lot below market value if it is in such a condition. New owner would have to do complete renovation.
Perhaps after you move into your new place, get the renovation done, then rent it out. The market for resale condos does not look good going forward for the next few years. If yours is a FH, it might be worth holding onto it long term.

If it's a 3-bedder condo around 1500 to 2000 sq ft, you should be able to do a nice reno for around 150 to 200K or even less if your tiles/fixtures/fittings are quite simple and basic. However if you need to equip/furnish a new house, you would be quite tight on $$$.

Thanks for the suggestion......
I am worried about more leaks, that's why I may sell.
But as you said if market is down, then I may just do what you have proposed.

[chiaberry]

A spacious FH condo will be an increasingly rare commodity going forward. It would be a pity to sell it cheaply due to poor condition. And it would also be a pity just to leave it uninhabited and not generating any income for you. So if finances allow, consider a simple reno, redo plumbing, wiring, the bathrooms and kitchen - enough to be able to get a decent rent for it. And pray that the unit above you does not leak into yours in the future.

If you bought it a long time ago and the price has appreciated a lot, you may be able to pay for the reno through refinancing the housing loan.

[ysyap]

In future, the person who buys over my place has to do extensive renovation.
Actually have not decided whether to sell or rent it out. It really depends on the market when my new place is ready.
That's the problem with old homes.....either renovate or spend money over bits and ends.
During my childhood I moved house many times cos my parents motto was never to stay in a house for more than 5 years.

Well I had a similar problem like you years back. I had an old FH condo which was giving me loads of leakage problems. Spent like more than $1k for only temporary rectification but decided to sell it at slightly below market price to avoid doing a thorough renovation which upon seeking for quotation, amounted to at least $60k. I sold that unit at about $20k below the next highest asking then.

[howgozit]

Hi, just want to know that if the upper floor of condo leaks, the owner in the upper floor has to foot the bill according to the by-laws, unless he can proof otherwise.
So who engages the contractor?
The upper floor or lower floor?
If the upper floor owner foots the bill, but later the problem is not rectified and the contractor needs to do more repairs, can the upper floor owner claim back the expenses from the lower floor for the previous repair?

TIA.

From BCA, go to page 7

http://www.bca.gov.sg/BMSM/others/strata_living.pdf

Inter-floor leaks

If there is an inter-floor leak, you and your neighbour are required to jointly carry out an investigation to establish the cause of the leak and proceed with the repair works. You should also both resolve the cost of repair. In cases like this, it is presumed that the leak has originated from the upper floor unit unless the owner can prove otherwise. Therefore, the owner of the upper floor unit cannot claim that the leak has not originated from a defect in his unit. He has to jointly investigate the cause with his lower-floor neighbour and proceed with any repairs required.

[irisng]

How about if there are some cracks on the bedroom and dining hall walls, should the owner be responsible for it or need to tell the mgt about it?

[Douk]

You can waterproof on top of the tiles. This does not cost much.

I am quite sure that is unlikely the case cos the pipe from the bathtub drains away to the drainage which is near the shower well which is at the other end of the toilet.
But my hubby thinks it is better to dig up the whole toilet and water proof the whole thing!
Wonder how much that will cost and how long it will take!

Can't wait to move out cos things are falling apart!
My furniture is so old and the paint is peeling everywhere. The curtains are also torn.
Renovating the place is not cost effective although I really like my place very much.



Yup, lots of wasted space in my place.
I have used the powder room and the bathtub in another room as storage areas.
This bathtub in the master toilet is for my leisure. I sit there and read sometimes and play with my rodent pets there.

[buttercarp]

You can waterproof on top of the tiles. This does not cost much.

Is that possible?
Can I walk on the area or use the bathroom after waterproofing it on top of the tiles?
Thanks.