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Thread: LH or FH: Nice Article that thrash some of your mindset

  1. #1
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    Default LH or FH: Nice Article that thrash some of your mindset

    A lot here would advice you to go for FH, why LH and so on...but think again after seeing this article which reinforce my belief...

    extracted for your reading

    Freehold Property: Why It’s Not as Great as It Seems

    By Ryan Ong | MoneySmart – Fri, May 25, 2012 12:00 AM SGT
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    Freehold Property: Why It’s Not as Great as It Seems
    Singaporeans get traditional when it comes to property. We want the land we pay for, and 99 years won’t cut it. We want our descendants holding on to it, long after the Great World War of 3012 when humanity is living off roaches and lichen. But freehold property is a monstrous cost; and are we being practical, or buying an overpriced security blanket? In this article, I examine how freehold property has conditional value. Depending on your situation, it may not be the best choice:



    "And I also want a moat, a drawbridge, and 200 foot walls. My family's staying here forever."

    What’s the Big Deal About Freehold Property?
    In Singapore, property can be leasehold (held for 99 years) or freehold (held for 999 years). Because there are video games with bigger maps than this country’s, 80% of our land is leasehold. And contrary to popular belief, the government isn’t obliged to pay compensation when the lease expires.
    As such, leasehold doesn’t sit well with traditional Asian perspectives; we’ve been raised to equate family with land. But coming from a more practical angle, there are disadvantages to freehold properties. These are:
    Higher cost
    Freehold status can be changed
    Location over lease
    Changing family structures
    Little difference in depreciation



    "This is also freehold what. I'm free to hold on as long as I can."

    1. Higher Cost
    It shouldn’t take a stroke of genius to figure out that freehold property costs more.
    All things being equal (same location, same size, same annoying neighbours, etc.), freehold property will cost 10 – 15% more than its leasehold counterpart. Now, if we’re talking about a T-Shirt or something, 10 – 15% isn’t a big deal. But we’re probably talking about a million dollar condo, and that’s an extra $100,000.
    I’m no psychology expert, but I bet the thrill of owning a “permanent” home quickly vanishes. Especially when monthly repayments start, and your financial situation becomes riskier than a roller coaster in a Chinese theme park.
    Think about it: How “permanent” or “secure” is a home when you’re struggling with its financial upkeep? When your family’s idea of shopping involves a petition to the Salvation Army, your home’s freehold status will do nothing.



    "Actually I can't afford freehold property. But asking to negotiate got me this complimentary lunch."

    2. Freehold Status Can Be Changed
    Freehold status isn’t permanent. If the government decides there really has to be a military base or satellite dish where your house is sitting, then it’s gone; freehold or no.
    At best, you will receive compensation at market value. But don’t succumb to any notions of permanence; land is only freehold for so long as agencies like the Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA) don’t feel like trolling you. Also, be aware that freehold property is prone to en-bloc sales; after 30 or 40 years, your neighbours might decide they’re sick of the scenery. Then your condo is sold off and you’re back to house hunting.



    "Ah, we have a lot of good reasons why we need the land back. Important government reasons."

    3. Location Over Lease
    When it comes to renting and resale, the emphasis is on the location, not on the lease.
    A leasehold condo that’s near an MRT station, for example, probably beats its freehold counterpart in market value. Likewise, if someone wants a place near their children’s schools, they might be willing to pay more regardless of leasehold status. Hey, they can always move in 20 years.
    Tenants, obviously, couldn’t care less about any of this. So when you’re out house hunting, don’t be distracted by freehold status. Stay focused on where the property is located, its possible rental income, and its simple convenience.



    "Legend has it that, when there's a solar eclipse, a bus going to my place will appear."

    4. Changing Family Structures
    The Singaporean family unit has changed. It’s no longer assumed that children will live with their parents, and it’s become the norm for married couples to find their own place. That removes the need to build the equivalent of a fantasy ancestral palace.
    If your children or grandchildren move out anyway, the extra you paid for freehold becomes irrelevant. You could have just gotten a leasehold, and spared yourself years of excessive repayments. And I don’t know about you, but I don’t know what I’ll be doing in 15 minutes, let alone where my children will be living in 50 years.
    I’m willing to bet that, for my first property at least, a leasehold is good enough. I can live with that for 30 years, then I’ll see.



    "Aww, my little girl's all grown up. That's it, you're applying for a flat next week."

    5. Little Difference in Depreciation
    There’s a common worry that, as the 99 year lease runs out, leasehold property will depreciate faster than freehold.
    In truth, a boom and bust market will affect both kinds of property the same way. During the 2002 – 2005 cycle, for example, freehold prices were just as depressed as leasehold prices. Likewise, during an upswing, your leasehold property will appreciate just as quickly as freehold counterparts.
    Tenure isn’t always relevant to property prices; whether you buy leasehold or freehold, it doesn’t free you of the need to time your purchases. Don’t let tenure put your radar on the fuzz; if the market conditions are bad, don’t feel pressured to buy just because it’s freehold.



    Can't tell if downward market trend, or my annual performance review is out.

    Getting the Right Financing
    Still can’t make up your mind? I’d advise you to consider the financing with care.
    Visit SmartLoans.sg, and compare the available home loan packages. This website automatically picks the cheapest loan packages on the market, and you can use the home loan calculator to compare leasehold and freehold options. Once you’re prepared to buy, SmartLoans can even put you in touch with a mortgage specialist, who can advise you further.

  2. #2
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    So much blabber just to promote smartloans.sg??

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    If I'm going to spend over $1M for a property, I would only buy FH or 999yrs LH. For 99yrs LH property, it is better to buy a HDB flat.

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    sorry huh, not to promote the whatever loan....just cut and paste only. so how to delete that portion??

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    The remaining lease affects financing of buyer (getting bank loan and using CPF funds to pay). This in turn affects the demand for your property, which affects the selling price of your property.

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    The problem is leasehold near MRT is more expensive than freehold that is further away. His article not convincing at all IMO.

    Lets take for example 2 projects side by side. 1 LH, the other FH. All other things being equal (size, design, facing, quality) LH $800k FH $1million. What will be the price of the LH if FH stayed at $1million in 20 years time?

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    If you have deep pocket, go for FH......
    If you manage to try all your best to get your home loan approve, go for LH if LH is much cheaper.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by evergreen
    The remaining lease affects financing of buyer (getting bank loan and using CPF funds to pay). This in turn affects the demand for your property, which affects the selling price of your property.
    +1..........

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    Ryan Ong must be holding on to LH99 and trying to sell but can't find buyers.

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    good luck to Ryan!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akira Fudou
    The problem is leasehold near MRT is more expensive than freehold that is further away. His article not convincing at all IMO.

    Lets take for example 2 projects side by side. 1 LH, the other FH. All other things being equal (size, design, facing, quality) LH $800k FH $1million. What will be the price of the LH if FH stayed at $1million in 20 years time?
    your eg also not convincing to go for FH le...

    assuming both are 10-15yrs old, does it make a diff if you sell after staying for 5yrs? If the market move up, both your FH and LH will go up as well. so in this article, the key point is, why do you need to pay the additional 200K for? this 200K could easily be invested to a diff area...

    i think it is pretty clear that it is dependent on the situation...you can't just say FH is better than LH. During times when the mrkt is hot, LH is a better performer if I can recall from some article...

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    lol..

    all laughing at ryan ong
    I took the road less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.” - Robert Frost quotes (American poet, 1874-1963)

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    Just go and ask those people who bought Bishan lease hold at peak prices before Asian Finalcial Crisis.... 15 years on.... still not yet break even... But those people who bought at that time anywhere freehold would have definitely broken even and made profit.....

    Lease hold easy to sell when market upswing... hold few years sell for profit.. the decay on your lease not felt...

    If market goes under a long period of weakness... leasehold decay will start to acclerate.

    Bottom line - buy FH if outlook uncertain to reduce the risk of holding on to a depreciating asset.

    If outlook rosy... but whatever also make money la...

    Really wished people stop having such short sighted views...

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    Can anyone give a real example of a 99LH condo that was bought 20 years ago for $300K and selling at $100K or less now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fclim
    Can anyone give a real example of a 99LH condo that was bought 20 years ago for $300K and selling at $100K or less now?
    That one cannot find since everything appreciated greatly in the last 30 years....

    But for example look at Mandarin Gardens (LH) vs Amber Gardens (FH)

    both built in 1980s if i never remember wrongly Amber gardens was maybe 15% more expensive (max 25% more)..

    if you look at the prices today.... Amber gardens easily 50% more expensive..

    3 bedder at Mandarin Gardens max max max i give you 950 psf.....
    bigger 3 bedder at Amber Gardens easily 1500 psf.... high floor can hit 1600 psf....

    In another 10 years time, (if non of them enbloc)... Amber gardens will be easily 70% more expensive than Mandarin gardens....

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    buying FH in my view is not because we can hold it forever....

    it is for value preservation....
    especially at this time when property already move up so much.... in the future we are not sure if prices can appreciate at the same pace as last 30 years so holding on to FH is always safer...

    For LH i think sell before 20 years..

    But then again let me quote another example...

    Ivory heights now 25 years old.... at 700psf...

    do you think in 2016 when its 30 years old it will depreciate? I think by then it will be 1000 psf coz of JLD....

    So maybe no conclusion lol...
    For me I think its still Location Location Location....

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    Quote Originally Posted by fclim
    Can anyone give a real example of a 99LH condo that was bought 20 years ago for $300K and selling at $100K or less now?
    definitely not now..

    property price in every corner of sg is on the upside..
    I took the road less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.” - Robert Frost quotes (American poet, 1874-1963)

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    Mandarin gardens and amber gardens in diff districts, not fair comparison

    Old lh may have problem on valuation and financing again location superb also no problem enbloc

    Price and location are #1
    Ride at your own risk !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom_opera
    Mandarin gardens and amber gardens in diff districts, not fair comparison

    Old lh may have problem on valuation and financing again location superb also no problem enbloc

    Price and location are #1
    I think quite fair because the district difference would have been equally priced in back in 1980s.... and also, the dramatics transformation in Marine Parade area has equally benefited Amber Park and Mandaring Gardens... (if not more so for Mandarin Gardens)

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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom_opera
    Mandarin gardens and amber gardens in diff districts, not fair comparison

    Old lh may have problem on valuation and financing again location superb also no problem enbloc

    Price and location are #1
    the valuation / financing / difficulties in enbloc issues faced by very old LH properties is the direct result of lease decay...

    even if enbloc, the price paid to you by developer is proportionately reduced by the amount they have to pay to get the lease topped up to 99 years...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Condo Kaiser
    the valuation / financing / difficulties in enbloc issues faced by very old LH properties is the direct result of lease decay...

    even if enbloc, the price paid to you by developer is proportionately reduced by the amount they have to pay to get the lease topped up to 99 years...
    Yes I agree with you on your points above...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lajia
    your eg also not convincing to go for FH le...

    assuming both are 10-15yrs old, does it make a diff if you sell after staying for 5yrs? If the market move up, both your FH and LH will go up as well. so in this article, the key point is, why do you need to pay the additional 200K for? this 200K could easily be invested to a diff area...

    i think it is pretty clear that it is dependent on the situation...you can't just say FH is better than LH. During times when the mrkt is hot, LH is a better performer if I can recall from some article...
    Hello please read carefully im not trying to convince. Im asking.
    Better performer? only if you flipping it fast, short term. If market correct and enter the bear market for another 10-20 years or so. do you think it is still a better performer?

    For self stay, FH. Investment, Rental, anything as long as the demand is good.

    Stop believing in whatever you read. Use your brain and logical mind to give it a thorough thought. Dont be so gullible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Condo Kaiser
    Just go and ask those people who bought Bishan lease hold at peak prices before Asian Finalcial Crisis.... 15 years on.... still not yet break even... But those people who bought at that time anywhere freehold would have definitely broken even and made profit.....

    Lease hold easy to sell when market upswing... hold few years sell for profit.. the decay on your lease not felt...

    If market goes under a long period of weakness... leasehold decay will start to acclerate.

    Bottom line - buy FH if outlook uncertain to reduce the risk of holding on to a depreciating asset.

    If outlook rosy... but whatever also make money la...

    Really wished people stop having such short sighted views...
    Well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akira Fudou
    Hello please read carefully im not trying to convince. Im asking.
    Better performer? only if you flipping it fast, short term. If market correct and enter the bear market for another 10-20 years or so. do you think it is still a better performer?

    For self stay, FH. Investment, Rental, anything as long as the demand is good.

    Stop believing in whatever you read. Use your brain and logical mind to give it a thorough thought. Dont be so gullible.
    if demand is good, then LH is the way to go as in the facts and figures tell us all as it says LH is a better performer... and if the market correct, wouldn't it be more stressful to have a bigger loan if buying FH then LH? Unless you pay them all without taking any loan...There is always both side of a coin.
    Which is what the article also mention...whether I use my brain or not is not the topic here, I am just sharing the article with some of my opinions. You can disagree but please cultivate self-respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lajia
    sorry huh, not to promote the whatever loan....just cut and paste only. so how to delete that portion??
    I know la... just teasing... I tot Ryan Ong promote smartloans

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    Quote Originally Posted by lajia
    if demand is good, then LH is the way to go as in the facts and figures tell us all as it says LH is a better performer... and if the market correct, wouldn't it be more stressful to have a bigger loan if buying FH then LH? Unless you pay them all without taking any loan...There is always both side of a coin.
    Which is what the article also mention...whether I use my brain or not is not the topic here, I am just sharing the article with some of my opinions. You can disagree but please cultivate self-respect.
    Oops my bad. sorry. anyway i dont see it as LH better than FH or FH better than LH. Because in real situation, location made a big different too. Where can we find LH and FH side by side?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akira Fudou
    Oops my bad. sorry. anyway i dont see it as LH better than FH or FH better than LH. Because in real situation, location made a big different too. Where can we find LH and FH side by side?
    I came across one.

    Residences @ Somme (FH) vs Parc Somme (FH) - although both small projects la.

    And this... very close although not side by side..

    St Michael's Regency (FH) vs Riviera 38 (999)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akira Fudou
    Oops my bad. sorry. anyway i dont see it as LH better than FH or FH better than LH. Because in real situation, location made a big different too. Where can we find LH and FH side by side?
    Got FH and LH side by side. The Seaview vs The Shore Residences in D15.

    Morale of the story is, priority always goes to FH, if bo bian die die want a location near MRT and amenities, then buy LH.

    I do not think there is a price difference between FH and LH. What makes the price difference is the proximity to town / MRT / amenities / schools. Design and layout are secondary factors contributing to the price. Last is the tenure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seletar
    If I'm going to spend over $1M for a property, I would only buy FH or 999yrs LH. For 99yrs LH property, it is better to buy a HDB flat.
    U are paying a premium for exclusivity and facilities in a condo vs HDB. Especially now if you have to pay $900K for a HDB in Toa Payoh, would you rather pay $100K more for a condo further away?

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    what's the premium u guys think is fair for FH?

    LH <$1000psf - FH ?
    LH 1001~1500psf - FH ?
    LH 1501~2000psf -FH ?
    LH 2000~2500psf -FH ?

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