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Thread: No fat returns from investment properties

  1. #1
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    Default No fat returns from investment properties

    This is why you should not expect fat returns from investment properties

    Another drawback of MAS cooling measures.
    According to Nomura, on 5 October, the MAS announced the latest round of cooling measures for the housing market, imposing a cap on mortgage loan tenures at 35 years as well as a lower LTV for mortgage tenures exceeding 30 years or extending beyond the age of 65 years.

    Here's more from Nomura:
    Nomura property analyst Sai Min Chow has noted that the measures are imposed on first-time home-buyers for the first time and he detects a slightly more hawkish tone from the MAS statement: “we will do what it takes to cool the market”.

    According to the MAS, “more than 45% of new residential property loans granted by financial institutions have tenures exceeding 30 years”.
    Our property analyst notes that unless home buyers have ample equity capital, he estimates that mortgage repayment could now be 24-45% higher than before, which theoretically should have some impact on housing demand.
    The most likely outcome, in his view, is a month or two of lower transaction volumes before activity starts to pick up again. He, therefore, thinks that the government may have to implement new curbs if the property market remains buoyant.

    Our concern is that additional measures may be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. To the extent that the measures implemented in the past have had limited effect, especially on transaction volumes, the property market will likely be vulnerable to yet more measures if the new curbs do not work.
    What is worrying, in our view, is the increase in investment demand from Singaporeans who still believe that they can get a reasonable return on their investment properties when completed.

    With vacancies on the rise and rentals declining, we see risk that many “investors” may have difficulty securing adequate cash flow to service their debt. Sooner or later, we believe that the fundamentals of increasing supply, a sluggish economy and prices at an all-time high will inevitably put pressure on prices, with a concomitant impact on sentiment.

    Observers continue to point to the low unemployment numbers as a key determinant underpinning sentiment. Should unemployment start to rise as a result of weakening global economic conditions or Singapore’s economic restructuring, the property market may become vulnerable to a sharp pullback.
    This would have negative wealth effects on the economy in addition to affecting corporate earnings

  2. #2
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    Default Softening rental

    Well said. Rental has indeed softening. Most projects that are sold are under construction, so are not completed or ready for rental as yet till 2014 onwards.

    What will happen then ? Massive vacant condos units with no rental to help defray mortgage repayment ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlin
    Well said. Rental has indeed softening. Most projects that are sold are under construction, so are not completed or ready for rental as yet till 2014 onwards.

    What will happen then ? Massive vacant condos units with no rental to help defray mortgage repayment ?
    Do you own an investment property??? If no, you may not know how it works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut
    Do you own an investment property??? If no, you may not know how it works.
    How does it work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut
    Do you own an investment property??? If no, you may not know how it works.
    Well say, if you don't have taste, how can you know what taste good or bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlin
    Well said. Rental has indeed softening. Most projects that are sold are under construction, so are not completed or ready for rental as yet till 2014 onwards.

    What will happen then ? Massive vacant condos units with no rental to help defray mortgage repayment ?
    China have a lot of vacant condos, do their price drop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabian
    How does it work?
    many ways, if desperate, can do daily or weekly rate for room instead of the whole apartment. if got holding power, then hold it lor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcachon
    China have a lot of vacant condos, do their price drop?

    china properties are mainly brought by rich businessman, very rich. can afford to buy a street of shophouse.

    sgp properties brought by a lot of average joes, I'm also a joe.

    cannot compare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwong71
    china properties are mainly brought by rich businessman, very rich. can afford to buy a street of shophouse.

    sgp properties brought by a lot of average joes, I'm also a joe.

    cannot compare.
    Me below average, $44,000 a year salary.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwong71
    china properties are mainly brought by rich businessman, very rich. can afford to buy a street of shophouse.

    sgp properties brought by a lot of average joes, I'm also a joe.

    cannot compare.
    Agree, cannot compare with those apartments bought by the rich businessman with holding power & like to leave apartments empty.
    I am sharing my concern on local market. The high end rental is lethargic.
    Will mass market be next come 2014 onwards or thereabout when supply streaming in ?

    The loan officer I know said he wouldn't be able to afford to buy if CM6 came few months back. His loan tenure was 48 yrs.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut
    Do you own an investment property??? If no, you may not know how it works.
    From what I understand, rental income is the means to finance the mortgage repayment. Unless there are other means I am not aware of ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlin
    From what I understand, rental income is the means to finance the mortgage repayment. Unless there are other means I am not aware of ?
    Do you really want to learn? If yes, then I pose you some question and we can begin. What is the property price. What is the loan quantum? What is the tenure you have? What is the current rental? What is the cheapest rental to get a tenant in (you undercut the competition)? What is your CPF amount you can use every month?

    If you take the trouble to input all the answers, I will take the trouble to answer you. If not, let's assume we never corresponded.


    Cheers

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut
    Do you really want to learn? If yes, then I pose you some question and we can begin. What is the property price. What is the loan quantum? What is the tenure you have? What is the current rental? What is the cheapest rental to get a tenant in (you undercut the competition)? What is your CPF amount you can use every month?

    If you take the trouble to input all the answers, I will take the trouble to answer you. If not, let's assume we never corresponded.


    Cheers
    i can join in to learn??

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    Quote Originally Posted by leesg123
    i can join in to learn??
    Of course, if you input the figure, I can share with you something. But please hor, I am not god. I will do my best, thats all. You need to decide from there. I will not in anyway tell anyone to buy or sell. I will only share and discuss. You have a right to agree or disagree and come to your own conclusion. OK?
    This are my terms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcachon
    Me below average, $44,000 a year salary.

    you are a lucky joe, but i cant say if others as lucky as u.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut
    Do you really want to learn? If yes, then I pose you some question and we can begin. What is the property price. What is the loan quantum? What is the tenure you have? What is the current rental? What is the cheapest rental to get a tenant in (you undercut the competition)? What is your CPF amount you can use every month?

    If you take the trouble to input all the answers, I will take the trouble to answer you. If not, let's assume we never corresponded.


    Cheers
    Thank you Chestnut. I think I got a good picture from the questions you posed for me

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlin
    Thank you Chestnut. I think I got a good picture from the questions you posed for me
    Please huh, make sure u have a job if not make sure u have buffer in cpf to pay monthly in the event you lose your job. Then at least you still go money to spend from rental when u are out of job.

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    ask Focus to input all these into his spreadsheet

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    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut
    Please huh, make sure u have a job if not make sure u have buffer in cpf to pay monthly in the event you lose your job. Then at least you still go money to spend from rental when u are out of job.

    I think I know Rlin from somewhere.

    Let's just say that the properties she invests in belong to the higher end type that not many Singaporeans are able to touch.

    She does not really need to work, at least not for the money.

    And I would wager that she has more experience in property investing than you have, Chestnut.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laguna
    ask Focus to input all these into his spreadsheet
    Bro/sis, I will never ask someone to do something if he/she does not ask me a question. Scully they think I bossy. Hahaha.

    Many people know something but actually they only know "something". They actually dont know that the something only makes up 10% of the entire equation.

    I taught my direct reports this so they can have financial freedom in the future. My believe is, if they can have money, they wont worry and then they can concentrate on the job and do a great job. So I have a very interesting philosophy and ideas very different from many people.

  21. #21
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    Background: 1bedrm MM, 3xxsqft, CCR:

    What is the property price? 750000
    What is the loan quantum? 450000
    What is the tenure you have? 35yrs
    What is the current rental? $2800pm
    What is the cheapest rental to get a tenant in (you undercut the competition)? $2000 (i am willing to go to this low)
    What is your CPF amount you can use every month? $0

    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut
    Do you really want to learn? If yes, then I pose you some question and we can begin. What is the property price. What is the loan quantum? What is the tenure you have? What is the current rental? What is the cheapest rental to get a tenant in (you undercut the competition)? What is your CPF amount you can use every month?

    If you take the trouble to input all the answers, I will take the trouble to answer you. If not, let's assume we never corresponded.


    Cheers

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Anus
    I think I know Rlin from somewhere.

    Let's just say that the properties she invests in belong to the higher end type that not many Singaporeans are able to touch.

    She does not really need to work, at least not for the money.

    And I would wager that she has more experience in property investing than you have, Chestnut.
    Honestly, it doesnt matter to me. If she is richer then me, I am happy. I did not hurt nor deceive anyone. If she is playing with me, so be it. But some other forummers hopefully can learn, right. Dont take it so personally la. Life is already tough for many, why make it worst. And what makes you think that I cannot touch those higher end that you mentioned??? Hahaha, Dont underestimate me.... just because of my name/nick - chestnut. Hahahaha

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by leesg123
    Background: 1bedrm MM, 3xxsqft, CCR:

    What is the property price? 750000
    What is the loan quantum? 450000
    What is the tenure you have? 35yrs
    What is the current rental? $2800pm
    What is the cheapest rental to get a tenant in (you undercut the competition)? $2000 (i am willing to go to this low)
    What is your CPF amount you can use every month? $0
    OK
    at 1.5% loan, your repayment is 1.4K. Interest rate will stay low for 2years at least. So you dont need to worry about paying extra cash right??? If rental softens. But I really dont know where people get the idea it is softening?? Mine is going up.

    If you are working or a stash of CPF, you can use your CPF to pay mortgage during no job situation. But I really dont understand about the 0 CPF part unless you are a foreigner or you are not working. So this, please dont tell me. I hope I answered your question.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut
    OK
    at 1.5% loan, your repayment is 1.4K. Interest rate will stay low for 2years at least. So you dont need to worry about paying extra cash right??? If rental softens. But I really dont know where people get the idea it is softening?? Mine is going up.

    If you are working or a stash of CPF, you can use your CPF to pay mortgage during no job situation. But I really dont understand about the 0 CPF part unless you are a foreigner or you are not working. So this, please dont tell me. I hope I answered your question.
    Oh, CPF is currently servicing 1st residential property. since didnt meet the CPF minimum sum, so cannot use cpf to service 2nd property.

  25. #25
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    you mean the rental for your unit is going up?
    how do you justify rental increase to your tenants? my current lease is up for renewal soon and i am just thinking about increasing rent.
    This may sound silly but i look at my nearby condos - not a full condo with full facility and their 2 bedders are going for 1K more than my 3 bedder in another full condo. but my neighbours in my condo development are renting their places out at about the same rate as mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut
    OK
    at 1.5% loan, your repayment is 1.4K. Interest rate will stay low for 2years at least. So you dont need to worry about paying extra cash right??? If rental softens. But I really dont know where people get the idea it is softening?? Mine is going up.

    If you are working or a stash of CPF, you can use your CPF to pay mortgage during no job situation. But I really dont understand about the 0 CPF part unless you are a foreigner or you are not working. So this, please dont tell me. I hope I answered your question.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by leesg123
    Oh, CPF is currently servicing 1st residential property. since didnt meet the CPF minimum sum, so cannot use cpf to service 2nd property.
    Oh, then wifey/hubby leh??? Now the question is only your risk appetite and your prediction of the market. Thats all I can share. The last is, do due diligence. Work out the worst case if you lose your job, how long you can weather.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emma
    you mean the rental for your unit is going up?
    how do you justify rental increase to your tenants? my current lease is up for renewal soon and i am just thinking about increasing rent.
    This may sound silly but i look at my nearby condos - not a full condo with full facility and their 2 bedders are going for 1K more than my 3 bedder in another full condo. but my neighbours in my condo development are renting their places out at about the same rate as mine.
    If the rental in your development did not drop and they are renting out at the same price as you, cant you ask for say $100-200 more?? If they move to another location, they need to pack, get movers (inconvenience) - what does this translate to in $. Get your agent to do the talking lah. Thats what I do. But if you cannot afford to lose this tenant, then you bo pian lo. You dont try, you never know. Good luck.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut
    Honestly, it doesnt matter to me. If she is richer then me, I am happy. I did not hurt nor deceive anyone. If she is playing with me, so be it. But some other forummers hopefully can learn, right. Dont take it so personally la. Life is already tough for many, why make it worst. And what makes you think that I cannot touch those higher end that you mentioned??? Hahaha, Dont underestimate me.... just because of my name/nick - chestnut. Hahahaha
    Like your spirit Chestnut. Wealth does not define who we are. The questions posed by you is indeed helpful for me to know what is the mortgage scene like for a younger set of buyers. Thanks for your generous sharing.

    Cheers

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlin
    Like your spirit Chestnut. Wealth does not define who we are. The questions posed by you is indeed helpful for me to know what is the mortgage scene like for a younger set of buyers. Thanks for your generous sharing.

    Cheers
    Like your spirit too. Oh, by the way, I am not so young. Hahaha.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by chestnut
    Oh, then wifey/hubby leh??? Now the question is only your risk appetite and your prediction of the market. Thats all I can share. The last is, do due diligence. Work out the worst case if you lose your job, how long you can weather.
    lol, cannot predict lah. i guess just invest in wat i can lah. household income $180k, total outstanding mortgage loan $1.4m (3 PC), $200k emergency cash. healthy or not healthy?

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