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Thread: PES & Roof Terrace to be treated as GFA

  1. #1
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    Smile PES & Roof Terrace to be treated as GFA

    d) Private enclosed spaces and private roof terraces will be treated as gross floor area (GFA). The GFA of such spaces in non-landed residential developments, including ECs, will be counted as part of the ‘bonus’ GFA of a residential development and subject to payment of charges. This is in line with the treatment of balconies under URA’s current guidelines. Details of this measure are at www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc13-01.htm.
    What do you all think about this CM? Will existing units, and those developments already launched, with PES & RT go up or down in $ as a result of this new ruling?

    My thoughts are:
    - Developers can still get 10% "bonus" GFA, but no longer FOC; must now pay development charge
    - However, as it's still "bonus" (otherwise, they only have the "standard" GFA), developers might as well develop them and charge for them; except that they must now price in a higher profit as it's no longer FOC
    - Which means that units with PES and RT should be selling on a psf basis higher than what developers used to sell them at (generally quite a bit lower than the "normal" units); especially now that the new guidelines seem to indicate that they can be covered, depending on building height, though not enclosed
    - And this leads me to conclude that on a whole, units with PES and RT should go up in $psf, particularly existing development or those already launched

    Or if developers decide that since they can't use their "free" space to increase profits anymore, they might not bother building them. Which means existing units with PES and RT would become rarer. Again potentially leading to higher $psf due to lack of supply

    Interested to hear the thoughts of the gurus here...

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjago
    What do you all think about this CM? Will existing units, and those developments already launched, with PES & RT go up or down in $ as a result of this new ruling?

    My thoughts are:
    - Developers can still get 10% "bonus" GFA, but no longer FOC; must now pay development charge
    - However, as it's still "bonus" (otherwise, they only have the "standard" GFA), developers might as well develop them and charge for them; except that they must now price in a higher profit as it's no longer FOC
    - Which means that units with PES and RT should be selling on a psf basis higher than what developers used to sell them at (generally quite a bit lower than the "normal" units); especially now that the new guidelines seem to indicate that they can be covered, depending on building height, though not enclosed
    - And this leads me to conclude that on a whole, units with PES and RT should go up in $psf, particularly existing development or those already launched

    Or if developers decide that since they can't use their "free" space to increase profits anymore, they might not bother building them. Which means existing units with PES and RT would become rarer. Again potentially leading to higher $psf due to lack of supply

    Interested to hear the thoughts of the gurus here...
    I think developers are already charging a lot for PES for PC in recent 1-2 years, my sense is about 60-70% of normal psf. Going forward, PES and RT will shrink to make them more affordable to buyers. This ruling will enhance the value of existing or BUC units with PES and RT more.

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    Excellent news! i was just rejected by MCST to make cover for my PES area.

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    if psf is higher for PES and RT, congrats to all who own them😃

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianmtsg
    Excellent news! i was just rejected by MCST to make cover for my PES area.

    Does the new rulling affect current PES and those signed S&P but not TOP yet?

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    Developers will not build big PES and RT for time being.

    They may slowly include a few such units in their new launches but priced almost the same psf as other units to test the demand for it.

    Buyers particularly looking for such units will have to turn to resale market.

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    Looks like the government has inadvertently made the buyer of that 4000+ sf CityLife penthouse an even bigger winner...

    And if developers don't raise the prices of their existing stock of units with PES and RT for sale, may be a good time to look at them to mitigate the new ABSD

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    For current owner, many mcst does not permit cover over PES/RT area. Now they can. That will mean bigger live in area for this unit.

    For developer and en-bloc buyer, that means higher premium with increase in DC. This eventually will pass on to house buyer.

    Quote Originally Posted by willow
    Does the new rulling affect current PES and those signed S&P but not TOP yet?

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    a lucky bastard. But i think only 10% of total space can be covered. Still, good buy for a 4000+ sqft unit, i think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjago
    Looks like the government has inadvertently made the buyer of that 4000+ sf CityLife penthouse an even bigger winner...

    And if developers don't raise the prices of their existing stock of units with PES and RT for sale, may be a good time to look at them to mitigate the new ABSD

  10. #10
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    Where did they say that PES and RT space can be covered up?
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianmtsg
    For current owner, many mcst does not permit cover over PES/RT area. Now they can. That will mean bigger live in area for this unit.

    For developer and en-bloc buyer, that means higher premium with increase in DC. This eventually will pass on to house buyer.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008
    Where did they say that PES and RT space can be covered up?
    Says it here http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc13-01app1.pdf

    Depending on how the unit is like, looks like can cover the top of whole PES and RT; Or at least a large part of it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjago
    Says it here http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc13-01app1.pdf

    Depending on how the unit is like, looks like can cover the top of whole PES and RT; Or at least a large part of it
    How abt balcony? Can be covered up too?

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    Just by reading all the restrictions, you will know the sizes of the coverage of the PES.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjago
    Says it here http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc13-01app1.pdf

    Depending on how the unit is like, looks like can cover the top of whole PES and RT; Or at least a large part of it

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    From my understanding, One can build a cover for open RT.

    Building a cover does not change the GFA. As long as one does not build an enclosed space, to make it a ROOM , then GFA doesn't change.

    If it isn't a room, it does not INcrease live in space. But a mere shelter. So how does existing RT worth more now?

    If you have a unit say 2000 sqft. Live in 1000 sqft + RT 1000 sqft.

    In the past developer sells the normal unit at say 1000 psf, those PH unit would be 750 psf.
    ( (1000 psf x 1000 sqft) + ( 500 psf x 1000 sqft) ) / 2000

    That's why PH with RT has lower psf than normal unit. And that 500 psf they charged you on that 1000 sqft of RT is Pure profit.

    Now going forward, knowing now that they are not to charge you on those empty open space, how does existing owner of such space stand to gain? When u have already paid for it when it's supposed to be free?

    Unless a buyer like open space, who would want to pay for a space that they now know is not chargeable?


    The reasons why MCST doesn't allow you to build a cover:
    For newly top condo, it spoils the facade

    For older condos, even if u want to pay DC, you may not be allowed to turn RT into a room because the GFA already fully utilized.

    Between 2006 to yesterday, developers have reaped in huge profit selling you the free space at half the psf of normal unit. And fully utilized the GFA.

    Only those super old condos 20 30 yr old that have not fully utilized the GFA.
    That's why you can find in those condo, some owner even covered up the whole balcony to become part of there living room, as they have spare GFA.

    Those older condo are the one that has potential to be enbloc cos developer can make use of the unused GFA to build more units.


    So you think going forward , would those big PH with humongous RT be worth more? When you can't convert it into a fully enclosed room and you are not supposed to charge for it. Will these still worth more?

  15. #15
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    Reading the release, it seems that PES and RT are now taken in as part of the bonus GFA which is accorded to balconies. This means that going forward developers have to make a call whether to build balconies/PES or RT as part of the allowed bonus GFA. I think it will boil down to whichever is the cheapest in terms of construction costs or whatever potential buyers will want to see in their unit.

    As for the covers, so far, ther release only talk about new develeopments under planning. It doesn't seem to indicate whether the covers are allowed for exisitng completed developments. Anyone can shed a light on it?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianmtsg
    a lucky bastard. But i think only 10% of total space can be covered. Still, good buy for a 4000+ sqft unit, i think.
    The 10% should have already been used up by other units with sheltered balconies. Doubt you can cover additional RT or PES unless you have some bonus GFA unused.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanarazu
    The 10% should have already been used up by other units with sheltered balconies. Doubt you can cover additional RT or PES unless you have some bonus GFA unused.
    Think for new condos under planning, you can cover all the PES and RT in the condo since under the new rulings, the PES/RT have already been taken into account in the 10% bonus GFA. However for PES, there is a setback of 3m and for RT, there is some setback restrictions depending on the height and the roof angle.

    However, there is nothing mentioned about existing condos so I am not too sure whether it applies because the PES and RT will definitely exceed the 10% bonus which would have been used up for the balconies.

    Going forward, I think we will see either one or even two of the 3 (balcony/PES/RT)being eliminated completely or shrink significantly as 10% is not much.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    From my understanding, One can build a cover for open RT.

    Building a cover does not change the GFA. As long as one does not build an enclosed space, to make it a ROOM , then GFA doesn't change.

    If it isn't a room, it does not INcrease live in space. But a mere shelter. So how does existing RT worth more now?

    If you have a unit say 2000 sqft. Live in 1000 sqft + RT 1000 sqft.

    In the past developer sells the normal unit at say 1000 psf, those PH unit would be 750 psf.
    ( (1000 psf x 1000 sqft) + ( 500 psf x 1000 sqft) ) / 2000

    That's why PH with RT has lower psf than normal unit. And that 500 psf they charged you on that 1000 sqft of RT is Pure profit.

    Now going forward, knowing now that they are not to charge you on those empty open space, how does existing owner of such space stand to gain? When u have already paid for it when it's supposed to be free?

    Unless a buyer like open space, who would want to pay for a space that they now know is not chargeable?


    The reasons why MCST doesn't allow you to build a cover:
    For newly top condo, it spoils the facade

    For older condos, even if u want to pay DC, you may not be allowed to turn RT into a room because the GFA already fully utilized.

    Between 2006 to yesterday, developers have reaped in huge profit selling you the free space at half the psf of normal unit. And fully utilized the GFA.

    Only those super old condos 20 30 yr old that have not fully utilized the GFA.
    That's why you can find in those condo, some owner even covered up the whole balcony to become part of there living room, as they have spare GFA.

    Those older condo are the one that has potential to be enbloc cos developer can make use of the unused GFA to build more units.


    So you think going forward , would those big PH with humongous RT be worth more? When you can't convert it into a fully enclosed room and you are not supposed to charge for it. Will these still worth more?
    Good points, but that's kinda what I'm trying to understand; was PES and RT considered part of bonus GFA previously? Can't seem to find this info.
    I thought they were and if so, the only (and very significant) difference now is that development charges will be incurred for new developments, whereas it was free to the developers previously.

    From Appendix 1: "All PES and private roof terraces within flat and condominium developments, including executive condominiums, will now be computed as GFA. To qualify under the bonus GFA, capped at 10% beyond the Master Plan allowable GPR, they will need to comply with the following guidelines"
    The way I intepret this is that developers can provide PES and RT as part of GFA (which I think is unlikely), or provide them as part of bonus GFA, subject to the guidelines. Either way, they incur development charges, forcing them to have to sell higher than they used to.

    And if there is demand from new buyers (I guess for people who like open spaces; with covers on RT, you can put dining sets, pool tables, massage chairs, etc. still very usable), the price should go up as the developers have to recoup. Following your example, maybe instead of 750 psf, they now charge 850psf, but not 1000psf? Or if there is no demand from new buyers, existing developments or BUC units become rarer, and so still leading to higher $psf (comparative to what they bought at) in future

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by proper-t
    Think for new condos under planning, you can cover all the PES and RT in the condo since under the new rulings, the PES/RT have already been taken into account in the 10% bonus GFA. However for PES, there is a setback of 3m and for RT, there is some setback restrictions depending on the height and the roof angle.

    However, there is nothing mentioned about existing condos so I am not too sure whether it applies because the PES and RT will definitely exceed the 10% bonus which would have been used up for the balconies.

    Going forward, I think we will see either one or even two of the 3 (balcony/PES/RT)being eliminated completely or shrink significantly as 10% is not much.

    Almost every balcony has a shelter.

    So the 10 pct already used up

    Nothing left for RT...


    Agree that going forth, all these 3 will shrink significantly


    If prices of existing units with RT were to go up, it's only becos they are getting rare.

    Then again, since can't convert to a room, and our weather so freaking hot, what use is the RT during the day? Even at night, it takes a while for it to cool down before you can walk out bare foot

    Put a lot of trees to create your own shade lah

  20. #20
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    sigh..... this is such a pain.

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