Landed Property - Going Forward (2013)

[proper-t]

Can you really rely on somebody's assertations or statements based on a chart when they can't even interpret that chart properly ?

The reason for the crop is simple. Please explain to readers here your statement below (especially the part in red) ,in relation to the chart. I crop it Big in case you are colour blind.Can you tell all here which segments drop the most in 2000 & 2008?

And IIRC, the interest rate for during 2000 and 2008 were pretty stable, however we did see a massive price correction of landed property during both period, which I believe DSR for landed owners were clearly <50%.

I am not sure why do you even need to crop the URA chart. The only reason I can think of is you trying to hide the bad things and only show the good things.

While you are trying to tell us landed property owner has got better holding power etc, however the chart doesnt quite reflect that.

1) The correction in 2000 to 2003 was due to dot com bubble and SARS, nothing to do with interest rate,

2) The 2008 correction again is due to financial crisis, nothing to do with interest rate.


So proper-T, please stop trying to smoke us with all you nonsensical cut and paste lah.

[proper-t]

Can you really rely on somebody's assertations or statements about holding power when they think that people who pay for properties fully with CASH will be included in loan or borrower data?

In the table, they are using average MI/ Average income.

So my question is consider the massive price gap of landed property and buyer profile for landed property in Singapore, where one end of the spectrum could be a billionaire buying his 3 or 4th investment GCB property costing $20-30m each and bought it with cash, while on the other end could be a average income salary man buying a LH terrace houses that cost <1.5m with 80% loan.

So if 20% of the landed property buyers have an annual income of say >$2m per year and bought their property with minimal or zero loan, will that give you a false impression that most landed owners are making $22k income per month and their average loan about is 1.9m?

Your question already shows that you read but you don't even understand the data or how it is collated. Firstly, if a person bought it with cash, it wouldn't even be captured in the data as it only tracks BORROWERS.

[proper-t]

Can you really rely on somebody's assertions or statements at all when they resort to crude rhetoric, are apparently a visitor of some dubious forum or implicate family members in posts?

wahlao, every week got new cooling measures rumour? Is MAS becoming a slut?

I was hoping for some sammyboy type of information. so disappointed.

Having said that, may I know why are you so eager to sell our FH land to NC? Self interest? Or are you hoping that your daughter will end up in a Ferrari driven by NC?

this is as good as saying that you will let your daughters sleep with any millionaires because there is a good chance that they will marry your daughters and then give birth to millionaire babies.

When Singapore import Chinese tennis players, we were talking about long term, and yes they came, they stayed, they made their money, they got screwed, they gave birth and they left.

[Ringo33]

Dont need to read all the cut and paste paraphrasing nonsense which are meant to conceal distorted information.

when interest rate goes up, landed property will be the first to get hit due to the large loan quantum and low yield.

[hopeful]

To all wondering about loan quantum and debt service capability of each segment of borrowers, read this from loanguru.....very interesting write-up based on actual data as at 3Q 2012. Leave it to readers here to draw their own conclusions.

http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/1082/3-g...quisition.html

any idea where they get the data from?

[proper-t]

any idea where they get the data from?

My guess is from the credit bureau of singapore as well as MAS statistics. Just drop them an email if you want to know for sure.

[proper-t]

Great that some people are actually reading through the link and digesting/forming their own conclusion rather than paying heed to the rant and raves of some people who not only constantly stumble and trip on their own statements but don't even have any solid facts to back it up other than a chart that they themselves cannot interpret properly.

[Arcachon]

This only apply after CM7.

In Jun 2006, 5% down DPS no need to apply for loan. So sad, I should have brought 4 Southbank 2 Bedroom instead of one.

[proper-t]

This only apply after CM7.

In Jun 2006, 5% down DPS no need to apply for loan. So sad, I should have brought 4 Southbank 2 Bedroom instead of one.

yep..the good ol' days

[leesg123]

To all wondering about loan quantum and debt service capability of each segment of borrowers, read this from loanguru.....very interesting write-up based on actual data as at 3Q 2012. Leave it to readers here to draw their own conclusions.

http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/1082/3-g...quisition.html

usually there are more people in a landed vs in a nonlandes. hence the so called household income is higher (more working adults, and more than 1 family under one roof)). for non landed, household income is bythe working couple (owner). so is flawed.

[proper-t]

usually there are more people in a landed vs in a nonlandes. hence the so called household income is higher (more working adults, and more than 1 family under one roof)). for non landed, household income is bythe working couple (owner). so is flawed.

From what I understand of the loan assessment process, the debt service capability is based on income of the borrower(s) which are named in the loan documentation and legally bound to service the loan and not who is staying in the property.

When you take a loan, does the loan officer ask every single member of your household what their income is?

[leesg123]

From what I understand of the loan assessment process, the debt service capability is based on income of the borrower(s) which are named in the loan documentation and legally bound to service the loan and not who is staying in the property.

When you take a loan, does the loan officer ask every single member of your household what their income is?

the household income column is from dept of stats or from loan applicant?

[proper-t]

the household income column is from dept of stats or from loan applicant?

Read the article in full. Link in post 179.. Excerpt below:

One of the methods used by banks to measure the ratio of total liabilities over income is the Debt Servicing Ratio (DSR). For example, if a new property purchase results in a monthly instalment of S$2,703 and the combined income of the borrower is S$7,950 per month, the resulting DSR is 34 percent, meaning the DSR is manageable and the borrower will not have a hard time servicing the loan.

[Ringo33]

the household income column is from dept of stats or from loan applicant?

Dont read too much into the pointless article because it doesnt tell you the complete picture about the reality.

Here are some table i got from department of statistic.

[leesg123]

I see, but i am not convinced on the income column for those staying in non landed, esp. condo. fresh uni grad couple would draw 6-7k per month ccombined gross, not yet add bonus.

see below survey:

http://www.salary.sg/2012/benchmark-...d-income-2012/

Do you also know that the average household living in 5-room and executive HDB flats makes $10,160 a month? And that those living in condos and private apartments earn an average income of $18,060 a month? Landed property dwellers make the most – at $24,039 per month on average.

[leesg123]

Dont read too much into the pointless article because it doesnt tell you the complete picture about the reality.

Here are some table i got from department of statistic.

Exactly!! the income column doesnt make sense and has a hidden agenda.

[proper-t]

Exactly!! the income column doesnt make sense and has a hidden agenda.

Why are you comparing household income from national statistics with the income garnered from loan statistics? Is it a must that all residents in a condo household can only buy a condo? Why can't they buy a landed?

The article just shows that landed buyers have a lower loan instalment to their income ratio compared to condo buyers. It doesn't show what household they come from. If you are trying to draw a correlation between the income stated in that article vs what is the household income in the national statistics, then I am afraid you will continue to be in a confused state.

[Ringo33]

Exactly!! the income column doesnt make sense and has a hidden agenda.

obviously landed owner will have more dependents living with them as compare to condo owners, hence it is not surprising that condo have got higher monthly income per member than landed

Anyway loanguru is selling mortgage, so just read it with a spoonful of salt.

[DC33_2008]

Fresh graduate with public sector starting salary $3000-3500. It is possible.

I see, but i am not convinced on the income column for those staying in non landed, esp. condo. fresh uni grad couple would draw 6-7k per month ccombined gross, not yet add bonus.

see below survey:

http://www.salary.sg/2012/benchmark-...d-income-2012/

Do you also know that the average household living in 5-room and executive HDB flats makes $10,160 a month? And that those living in condos and private apartments earn an average income of $18,060 a month? Landed property dwellers make the most – at $24,039 per month on average.

[Ringo33]

Why are you comparing household income from national statistics with the income garnered from loan statistics? Is it a must that all residents in a condo household can only buy a condo? Why can't they buy a landed?

The article just shows that landed buyers have a lower loan instalment to their income ratio compared to condo buyers. It doesn't show what household they come from. If you are trying to draw a correlation between the income stated in that article vs what is the household income in the national statistics, then I am afraid you will continue to be in a confused state.

Because household income is more important than loan statistic. Although the property is under say husband's name, that doenst mean that his wife income doesnt not go into paying for household living expenses or mortgage.

And although landed owner has got higher monthly income, that doesnt mean that he or she has got more disposable income because he might have many dependents freeloading on his salary.

[DC33_2008]

What makes you think in this manner? It varies from family to family.

obviously landed owner will have more dependents living with them as compare to condo owners, hence it is not surprising that condo have got higher monthly income per member than landed

Anyway loanguru is selling mortgage, so just read it with a spoonful of salt.

[proper-t]

Because household income is more important than loan statistic. Although the property is under say husband's name, that doenst mean that his wife income doesnt not go into paying for household living expenses or mortgage.

And although landed owner has got higher monthly income, that doesnt mean that he or she has got more disposable income because he might have many dependents freeloading on his salary.

The point of the discussion stems from your statement that the landed buyers are overleveraged and to 'watch out' if/when interest rates rise.

Can you please enlighten all here how you are justifying your statement above based on household income statistics alone since you are of the view that it is more important?

Which is more important in the context of what is being discussed here? household income? or in the case of the article, the debt service capability of landed/condo buyers?

[Ringo33]

What makes you think in this manner? It varies from family to family.

that is what the statistic shows.

Average household income of landed = $24,000
Average income per member living in landed = $5900

Average household income of condo = $18,000
Average income per member living in condo = $6500

[proper-t]

Anyway loanguru is selling mortgage, so just read it with a spoonful of salt.

If you were selling mortgage, wouldn't you try to please your largest segment of customers? Last I checked, condo buyers had the largest aggregate loan volume. It seems the only one whose statements should be taken with a mega dose of salt is the one trying to discredit the article itself.

[Ringo33]

The point of the discussion stems from your statement that the landed buyers are overleveraged and to 'watch out' if/when interest rates rise.

Can you please enlighten all here how you are justifying your statement above based on household income statistics alone since you are of the view that it is more important?

Which is more important in the context of what is being discussed here? household income? or in the case of the article, the debt service capability of landed/condo buyers?

In the same loanguru table you quoted, the average loan size of landed property is 1.89m, while condo is 0.94m.

If we factor in the average household income of $18,000 for condo and $24,000 for landed, its pretty clear which segment of the market is over leveraged.

[Ringo33]

If you were selling mortgage, wouldn't you try to please your largest segment of customers? Last I checked, condo buyers had the largest aggregate loan volume. It seems the only one whose statements should be taken with a mega dose of salt is the one trying to discredit the article itself.

This chart is meaningless to our discussion here. please stop posting it.

[Ringo33]

Those who think the landed property owners has got more holding power should read these tables taken from Department of Statistic.

These are hard facts numbers taken from stat board, nothing here is being sugar coated or misrepresented.

[proper-t]

In the same loanguru table you quoted, the average loan size of landed property is 1.89m, while condo is 0.94m.

If we factor in the average household income of $18,000 for condo and $24,000 for landed, its pretty clear which segment of the market is over leveraged.

You are obviously still quite confused trying to correlate and intermix household income with loan data.

How do you know that people living in condos have not bought landed and vice versa?

When a bank makes a loan they don't call on the entire household to service a loan, they rely on the borrowers named in the loan documentation. For all we know one borrower may be living in a condo and another may be living in a landed.

How relevant is your household income scenario now?

[lajia]

average landed owner got more dependents...average household income for condo about 18K...

what nonsense is this?? hehehe....this is funny...and crazy assumptions.

let me also put in some assumptions.

what is selling in high volume? - Condo
what is one of the purpose of CM7? - to prevent over leveraging

so, which segments of owner tend to over leverage which in turn, garmen try to avoid bubble with CM7? isnt this obvious?

this is also assumption...

[Ringo33]

You are obviously still quite confused trying to correlate and intermix household income with loan data.

How do you know that people living in condos have not bought landed and vice versa?

When a bank makes a loan they don't call on the entire household to service a loan, they rely on the borrowers named in the loan documentation. For all we know one borrower may be living in a condo and another may be living in a landed.

How relevant is your household income scenario now?

I can understand your frustration and disappointment that I have busted your loanguru article with some cold hard facts taken from department of statistic, so I am not surprise that you are now coming out with lot of pointless questions.

For all we know, you might just be a freeloader living in landed property.