Landed Property - Going Forward (2013)

[Ringo33]

average landed owner got more dependents...average household income for condo about 18K...

what nonsense is this?? hehehe....this is funny...and crazy assumptions.

let me also put in some assumptions.

what is selling in high volume? - Condo
what is one of the purpose of CM7? - to prevent over leveraging

so, which segments of owner tend to over leverage which in turn, garmen try to avoid bubble with CM7? isnt this obvious?

this is also assumption...

These are FACTS taken from department of statistic. One cant simply dispute facts with silly assumption for sure.


http://www.singstat.gov.sg/Publicati...ure/pp-s19.pdf

[sh]

In the same loanguru table you quoted, the average loan size of landed property is 1.89m, while condo is 0.94m.

If we factor in the average household income of $18,000 for condo and $24,000 for landed, its pretty clear which segment of the market is over leveraged.

What is the average price of a landed? Easily 3.8? Double the average loan amount?

Similarly, what is the average price of a PC? Any one has the figures...

Before we jump to the conclusion on who is over leveraged based on income alone...

[proper-t]

I can understand your frustration and disappointment that I have busted your loanguru article with some cold hard facts taken from department of statistic, so I am not surprise that you are now coming out with lot of pointless questions.

For all we know, you might just be a freeloader living in landed property.

Please enlighten readers here how you have 'busted' the article?

All you have shown is just how confused you are trying to match average national household income against actual loan statistics and income levels of borrowers.

Not surprising coming from someone who cannot even interpret their own chart.

[Ringo33]

Please enlighten readers here how you have 'busted' the article?

All you have shown is just how confused you are trying to match household income against actual loan statistics and income levels of borrowers.

Not surprising coming from someone who cannot even interpret their own chart.

before we go into that, are you a freeloader living in landed property?

[Ringo33]

What is the average price of a landed? Easily 3.8? Double the average loan amount?

Similarly, what is the average price of a PC? Any one has the figures...

Before we jump to the conclusion on who is over leveraged based on income alone...

it doesnt matter really. when you are late in your mortgage payment, the bank will still have the right to force you to sell your property.

[proper-t]

before we go into that, are you a freeloader living in landed property?

Spoken like a defeated individual who has nothing more substantial to offer other than a personal taunt.

Next you will probably bring in family members....

[Ringo33]

Spoken like a defeated individual who has nothing more substantial to offer than a personal taunt.

Next you will probably bring in family members....

if asking silly question is a sign of defeat then I am sure you will be rank right at the top of loser list.

By evading my question, I would presume you are a freeloader living in landed property. Perhaps that explain why average income of household member living in landed property is lower than condo.

And back to you question. May I know why in your opinion, household income is not an important factor when considering mortgage loan? And is HDB or URA wrong to use household income to determine the eligibility for buying subsidized flats and EC?

[proper-t]

if asking silly question is a sign of defeat then I am sure you will be rank right at the top of loser list.

By evading my question, I would presume you are a freeloader living in landed property. Perhaps that explain why average income of household member living in landed property is lower than condo.

And back to you question. May I know why in your opinion, household income is not an important factor when considering mortgage loan? And is HDB or URA wrong to use household income to determine the eligibility for buying subsidized flats and EC?

Looks like someone just admitted that he asked a silly question.

There you go being confused again. We are talking about the loan liability of condo and landed buyers and their capability in servicing the debt not HDB or ECs. Eligibility to buy is a world of difference from the quantum of loan you are able to receive or service.

When you approach a bank for a loan to buy a condo or landed, do they check the average household income based on your current residence and approve your loan based on that statistic?

[leesg123]

aiyah good brother Ringgo, dont blame or argue with brother propert-t, he has shared a good article showing the various scenario. just that some readers dont quite like the conclusion that the blog is trying to put across, that landed people are safest compared to the rest as the blog has to choose to use a set of income info that serves their purpose. statistics is a two way sword lah. everyone are right, everyone are wrong too.

let's have healthy dose of friendly discussions ok?

[proper-t]

aiyah good brother Ringgo, dont blame or argue with brother propert-t, he has shared a good article showing the various scenario. just that some readers dont quite like the conclusion that the blog is trying to put across, that landed people are safest compared to the rest as the blog has to choose to use a set of income info that serves their purpose. statistics is a two way sword lah. everyone are right, everyone are wrong too.

let's have healthy dose of friendly discussions ok?

Thanks for trying....good luck on talking sense into him. Many have tried yet he still insist on terrorising this forum and even bring family members into it.

Like I pointed out when I posted that article, I leave it to readers to draw their own conclusions. As the article clearly shows, condo buyers form the largest proportion of borrowers in terms of collective loan quantum so as to what self serving purpose Loanguru (who are selling loans) could possibly have in showing that the debt servicing capability of landed buyers is stronger than condo buyers, I leave it to readers here to judge their objectivity.

[Ringo33]

aiyah good brother Ringgo, dont blame or argue with brother propert-t, he has shared a good article showing the various scenario. just that some readers dont quite like the conclusion that the blog is trying to put across, that landed people are safest compared to the rest.

let's have healthy dose of friendly discussions ok?

unfortunately this is not the first time that this article has appeared in this forum. in the other thread, I have already questioned the reliability and validity of the article because historical movement of mortgage interest rate so far does not in anyway show the landed property owners has got better holding power etc.

If you look at the URA property price index by type, you can clearly see the price of landed property are not spared during a crisis, in fact the detached housing segment suffer the the steepest correction during crisis. Perhaps, instead of saying landed property owner (at least for the detach class segment) has holding power, I think it might be more appropriate to say they have losing power (as they can afford to lose)

And now that we have compare the numbers to those from department of statistic, it is pretty obvious that the said loanguru article is clearly meant to show only one side of the story.

Whoever that wants to dispute the FACTS on from the department of statistic, it is best that they use facts to do so instead of silly questioning and reasoning.

[proper-t]

unfortunately this is not the first time that this article has appeared in this forum. in the other thread, I have already questioned the reliability and validity of the article because historical movement of mortgage interest rate so far does not in anyway show the landed property owners has got better holding power etc.

If you look at the URA property price index by type, you can clearly see the price of landed property are not spared during a crisis, in fact the detached housing segment suffer the the steepest correction during crisis. Perhaps, instead of saying landed property owner (at least for the detach class segment) has holding power, I think it might be more appropriate to say they have losing power (as they can afford to lose)

And now that we have compare the numbers to those from department of statistic, it is pretty obvious that the said loanguru article is clearly meant to show only one side of the story.

Whoever that wants to dispute the FACTS on from the department of statistic, it is best that they use facts to do so instead of silly questioning and reasoning.

Perhaps you would like to compare the number of times the article has appeared compared to the number of times you have blatantly displayed your ppi chart which by the way, you are still verbally harping about in your post above?

[Ringo33]

Looks like someone just admitted that he asked a silly question.

There you go being confused again. We are talking about the loan liability of condo and landed buyers and their capability in servicing the debt not HDB or ECs. Eligibility to buy is a world of difference from the quantum of loan you are able to receive or service.

When you approach a bank for a loan to buy a condo or landed, do they check the average household income based on your current residence and approve your loan based on that statistic?

What I have highlighted in RED is an example of the many silly questions that I have encountered in this forum.

The one in Blue is one of the many nonsensical theories which I have read so many time in this forum.

Perhaps as a freeloader, you have never actually fill in a mortgage application form and that somehow explain why you are not aware that banks always ask you about the number of dependents and age in the application form, just like they ask you about your other financial commitments.

[princess_morbucks]

I can't believe that some of you men can be so petty.
I thought it was a woman thing to pick on one another.
From this forum, I learn that some men are also like women.

It is so difficult to follow what you guys are trying to put forward and I have given up on it.

I wish you could present facts in a factual manner and quote sources to substantiate them instead of insulting and bickering.

We are here to learn from one another.

[proper-t]

What I have highlighted in RED is an example of the many silly questions that I have encountered in this forum.

The one in Blue is one of the many nonsensical theories which I have read so many time in this forum.

Perhaps as a freeloader, you have never actually fill in a mortgage application form and that somehow explain why you are not aware that banks always ask you about the number of dependents and age in the application form, just like they ask you about your other financial commitments.

This is laughable from someone who just admitted that they asked a silly question. I just remembered that you may be color blind as well since you can't even interpret the ppi chart properly so be careful with your color scheme there.

Theories? Please enlighten the readers on your 'theory' of how the importance of average monthly household income to URA/HDB in ascertaining 'Eligibility to buy HDB/EC' will translate to the importance of that statistic to banks in determining the debt servicing of condo/landed buyers


Your question I quote was "May I know why in your opinion, household income is not an important factor when considering mortgage loan?"

Everyone knows the key information that loan officers ask for are the borrower's income details and documents. In all my experience, no loan officer has ever required me to disclose the income of (non-borrower) everyone else who is staying with me in the household. If household income was so important, wouldn't they have fields in the application form asking for the income of all the people staying with you?

[Ringo33]

This is laughable from someone who just admitted that they asked a silly question. I just remembered that you may be color blind as well since you can't even interpret the ppi chart properly so be careful with your color scheme there.

Theories? Please enlighten the readers on your 'theory' of how the importance of average monthly household income to URA/HDB in ascertaining 'Eligibility to buy HDB/EC' will translate to the importance of that statistic to banks in determining the debt servicing of condo/landed buyers


Your question I quote was "May I know why in your opinion, household income is not an important factor when considering mortgage loan?"

Everyone knows the key information that loan officers ask for are the borrower's income details and documents. In all my experience, no loan officer has ever required me to disclose the income of (non-borrower) everyone else who is staying with me in the household. If household income was so important, wouldn't they have fields in the application form asking for the income of all the people staying with you?

You are can choose whatever you want to believe but that doesnt give you the right to prevent others from sharing FACTS.

FACTS
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/Publicati...ure/pp-s19.pdf

Average household income of landed = $24,000
Average income per member living in landed = $5900

Average household income of condo = $18,000
Average income per member living in condo = $6500

FACTS
Average loan size of condo is 930K while landed is 1.90m.
Comparing household debt to income ratio, landed property owners are more highly geared.

FACTS
Landed property, including detached houses are not immune to crisis, and the theory about landed property owners have more holding power is only as good as a theory. In reality, they will fall like a deck of cards.

[proper-t]

Tsk Tsk, someone who can't come up with anything substantial to rebut my post goes running back to his chart and suddenly tries to play the persecuted role and accuses people of preventing them from posting what they label as 'facts'.

May I remind readers that here is someone who continually hounds the landed forum posting negative and derogatory remarks, and even bringing family members into his posts disregarding any counsel or opinion from other forumers.

This is someone who once declared that he is done with a thread (see link below post #21) and then continually keeps posting after that. If he is willing to subject himself to the embarrassment of going against his own word and can't even prevent himself from posting, who else can stop him?

http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=17132


To allay his fears and paranoia, there is really nobody here who can prevent him from doing anything. The fact of the matter is that his claims and statements are so full of holes that ultimately, he will fall down a big one and realise his biggest fear which will be entirely of his own self-doing.

The end result, he still won't be able to afford his landed property despite spending all this time and effort to try to talk it down.

To get the full side of the story, You can read the article here based on loan statistics as at 3Q 2012 and draw your own conclusion:


http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/1082/3-g...quisition.html




[/quote]

[Ringo33]

90% of what you just wrote are nothing related to the subject of this thread while the other 10% are wasted on twisted numbers and interpretation that has already been rebutted many times with stats from department of statistic.

Please provide some new material is you wish to prove the landed property owners has got more holding power and that landed household doesnt have a higher debt ratio as compare to condo household.

[proper-t]

90% of what you just wrote are nothing related to the subject of this thread while the other 10% are wasted on twisted numbers and interpretation that has already been rebutted many times with stats from department of statistic.

Please provide some new material is you wish to prove the landed property owners has got more holding power and that landed household doesnt have a higher debt ratio as compare to condo household.

Readers are smart enough to know that you haven't rebutted anything. In fact, all that they will see is someone who couldn't address major holes in their statements, ran away from the argument at post 225 and had to take refuge in a chart which they can't even interpret properly.

Someone should heed their own advice as far as new material is concerned. Would you like to enlighten readers here how many times you have posted that same old chart just in this landed forum alone.

At least some forumer appreciates the info I have posted.

aiyah good brother Ringgo, dont blame or argue with brother proper-t, he has shared a good article showing the various scenario. just that some readers dont quite like the conclusion that the blog is trying to put across, that landed people are safest compared to the rest as the blog has to choose to use a set of income info that serves their purpose. statistics is a two way sword lah. everyone are right, everyone are wrong too.

let's have healthy dose of friendly discussions ok?

[Ringo33]

Readers are smart enough to know that you haven't rebutted anything. In fact, all that they will see is someone who couldn't address major holes in their statements, ran away from the argument at post 225 and had to take refuge in a chart which they can't even interpret properly.

Someone should heed their own advice as far as new material is concerned. Would you like to enlighten readers here how many times you have posted that same old chart just in this landed forum alone.

At least some forumer appreciates the info I have posted.

There is really no need to patronize yourself because your focus should be answering those who question the validity of what you have posted as having 2 murderers in court will not make murder a lesser crime.

And like I said before, here is no such thing as REAL facts and please learn to distinguish what is facts and what is opinions.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

[proper-t]

There is really no need to patronize yourself because your focus should be answering those who question the validity of what you have posted as having 2 murderers in court will not make murder a lesser crime.

And like I said before, here is no such thing as REAL facts and please learn to distinguish what is facts and what is opinions.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

Looks like someone is utterly confused about the thread he is posting in and totally straying off course to other threads.

Please point out in this thread where the phrase 'REAL facts' have been mentioned and what context it has been used in this thread.

You should heed the advice given by lee123:

1. Don't blame me for your intellectual inadequacies and insecurities.

2. Don't argue with me.

]aiyah good brother Ringgo, dont blame or argue with brother proper-t...

No wonder you are so bitter and angry. You should uproot yourself and goto another forum where you feel more at home and mix with forumers of the same type of character and intellectual level since you crave it so much.

I was hoping for some sammyboy type of information. so disappointed

[lajia]

Aiyo bro, why are u still going in circle?? What is the point that u are trying to make after almost 20over pgs? Is it that u are trying to say there are many poorer ppl living in landed than condo?? Assuming each household own one landed that means we have 70k households in landed and why u so worry about these small group of pplcompared to the 1mil over households we have here? Don't worry for them la, these group of ppl got their way that's why they stay in landed. If garmen worry about them then out of the 7 CM they could have already target on these ppl being over leveraging...worry not, move on, the thread is about landed market moving forward....have a constructive discussion. No need to say who good or bad, ppl got eye, don't worry we are all smart ppl.

unfortunately this is not the first time that this article has appeared in this forum. in the other thread, I have already questioned the reliability and validity of the article because historical movement of mortgage interest rate so far does not in anyway show the landed property owners has got better holding power etc.

If you look at the URA property price index by type, you can clearly see the price of landed property are not spared during a crisis, in fact the detached housing segment suffer the the steepest correction during crisis. Perhaps, instead of saying landed property owner (at least for the detach class segment) has holding power, I think it might be more appropriate to say they have losing power (as they can afford to lose)

And now that we have compare the numbers to those from department of statistic, it is pretty obvious that the said loanguru article is clearly meant to show only one side of the story.

Whoever that wants to dispute the FACTS on from the department of statistic, it is best that they use facts to do so instead of silly questioning and reasoning.

[mantrix]

Guys cool it. Obviously those with vested interests will defend their decision, be them staying in landed or condo. Human nature. As to who is correct, time will tell.

[Ringo33]

Aiyo bro, why are u still going in circle?? What is the point that u are trying to make after almost 20over pgs? Is it that u are trying to say there are many poorer ppl living in landed than condo?? Assuming each household own one landed that means we have 70k households in landed and why u so worry about these small group of pplcompared to the 1mil over households we have here? Don't worry for them la, these group of ppl got their way that's why they stay in landed. If garmen worry about them then out of the 7 CM they could have already target on these ppl being over leveraging...worry not, move on, the thread is about landed market moving forward....have a constructive discussion. No need to say who good or bad, ppl got eye, don't worry we are all smart ppl.

1) Based on department of statistic figure on household income do you agree that landed property owner more dependents living with them as compared to condo owners?

2) Based on department of statistic figures and average home loan from Q32012, do you agree that landed owner are more leveraged in their mortgage as compared to condo owners.

3) If (2) is a yes, would you agree that when interest rate rises, landed owners will be the worst hit because of the huge loan quantum?

4) If (1) is yes, would you agree that during economic crisis, landed segment are most vulnerable?

[DC33_2008]

Most people will be affected in a downturn whether you own a landed or condo unless one has a recession proof jobs. The high household income earners may get pay freeze and no bonus may still be better than an average income earners if both but must qualify that the high household income earners will be worst off when they lose their jobs.

1) Based on department of statistic figure on household income do you agree that landed property owner more dependents living with them as compared to condo owners?

2) Based on department of statistic figures and average home loan from Q32012, do you agree that landed owner are more leveraged in their mortgage as compared to condo owners.

3) If (2) is a yes, would you agree that when interest rate rises, landed owners will be the worst hit because of the huge loan quantum?

4) If (1) is yes, would you agree that during economic crisis, landed segment are most vulnerable?

[DC33_2008]

Most people will be affected in a downturn whether you own a landed or condo unless one has a recession proof jobs. The high income earners may get pay freeze and no bonus may still be better than an average income earners if both but must qualify that the high household income earners will be worst off when they lose their jobs. I still believe that one can buy a landed but not too large and yet still got spare cash to buy condos or invest in other instruments.

1) Based on department of statistic figure on household income do you agree that landed property owner more dependents living with them as compared to condo owners?

2) Based on department of statistic figures and average home loan from Q32012, do you agree that landed owner are more leveraged in their mortgage as compared to condo owners.

3) If (2) is a yes, would you agree that when interest rate rises, landed owners will be the worst hit because of the huge loan quantum?

4) If (1) is yes, would you agree that during economic crisis, landed segment are most vulnerable?

[Ringo33]

Most people will be affected in a downturn whether you own a landed or condo unless one has a recession proof jobs. The high income earners may get pay freeze and no bonus may still be better than an average income earners if both but must qualify that the high household income earners will be worst off when they lose their jobs. I still believe that one can buy a landed but not too large and yet still got spare cash to buy condos or invest in other instruments.

Thats something which has been spoken for and validated many time by historical price trend from the past, however there are still people who choose to believe that this time around it is different because Singapore land is limited etc (like land was not limited in Singapore is the past 20-30 years)

Look at the price index, it is pretty clear that landed property prices is in for some correction soon. With ABSD, SSD, LTV restiction, rising interest rate, etc, investors will start to pull money out from landed property and put them into some other regional property market.

[lajia]

you are very persistent...using your meaningless chart. let me tell you this, not sure if you are too young who have not experience this kind correction or what. If the correction comes, it will be wide spread, will not be for one segment! whoever you might think leverage more is irrelevant because what is important is who's job is more stable and who's still having income. Can you find this in any statistic that you have shown?? enough for you to search around??

[QUOTE=Ringo33]Thats something which has been spoken for and validated many time by historical price trend from the past, however there are still people who choose to believe that this time around it is different because Singapore land is limited etc (like land was not limited in Singapore is the past 20-30 years)

Look at the price index, it is pretty clear that landed property prices is in for some correction soon. With ABSD, SSD, LTV restiction, rising interest rate, etc, investors will start to pull money out from landed property and put them into some other regional property market.

[proper-t]

Thats something which has been spoken for and validated many time by historical price trend from the past, however there are still people who choose to believe that this time around it is different because Singapore land is limited etc (like land was not limited in Singapore is the past 20-30 years)

Look at the price index, it is pretty clear that landed property prices is in for some correction soon. With ABSD, SSD, LTV restiction, rising interest rate, etc, investors will start to pull money out from landed property and put them into some other regional property market.

The same old chart again.

1. Can you please tell the readers here why you only start your chart from Q1 97 and not the entire ppi chart from 1986 onwards?

Are you trying to hide something?

Let me enlighten readers here what he is trying to hide. You can read it all here.

http://www.singaporepropertycycle.co...-1986-to-1998/

The entire cycle from trough to peak to trough lasted from Q2 1986 to Q4 1998.



The run up in landed prices took 10 years from Q2 1986 to Q2 1996. The percentage change was 475% from trough to peak for the landed index.

If you believe what he is saying that history will repeat itself, then we have a long way to go before the landed crash will happen.

Why? Read it here

http://www.singaporepropertycycle.co...09-to-Present/


We are only about three years into our current cycle which started in Q2 2009 and the landed index has only gone up 86% from the last trough. This is way below the 475% increase during the 86 run.

If he is implying that history will repeat itself, then the climb in landed index prices is only in its infancy.

2. He also keeps saying that things have not changed since the crash in 1998/99.

Well, the difference between 98/99 was that the LTVs for housing loans did not go to as low of 20%/40% (for 3rd housing loan onwards) and they did not have SSDs back then as well. With such measures in place, what do you think the risk profile of borrowers in the 1980s will be like compared to present day?

I leave it to the readers here to draw their own conclusion. As long as he keeps posting that chart, it just means that he is not showing you the whole picture.

[Ringo33]

you are very persistent...using your meaningless chart. let me tell you this, not sure if you are too young who have not experience this kind correction or what. If the correction comes, it will be wide spread, will not be for one segment! whoever you might think leverage more is irrelevant because what is important is who's job is more stable and who's still having income. Can you find this in any statistic that you have shown?? enough for you to search around?? .

the chart is only useful for people who looks into the details, it will be meaningless for those who just look at its shapes and colors.


In buying property, there is always the rule of thumb of not using more than 30-40% of your salary to service your mortgage loan and one must always set aside enough saving and CPF to continue paying for the mortgage for at least 18 months in case one goes out of job.

What I highlighted above will go into one of the top 5 BS that I have come across in this forum. Perhaps some over leveraged landed owner here are so desperate that they need to say something stupid to comfort themselves.