The real FACTS about Landed property

[proper-t]

Haha...a man of his word indeed....I am sure whatever he post is extremely trustworthy...

From 11 posts up....

I am done with this thread. Good luck to your economic fairytale

Now, in this same thread....

a logical person will never say that living in landed property is cheaper than condo because we all know that what most landed owners are pay in utility bills every month will be more than what most condo owners are paying for maintenance.

while we are at it, please do also remember that what condo dwellers are paying in maintenance is not just four walls and a door, they are paying for tangible benefits like having landscape kids play ground. swimming pool, jacuzzi, function room, gym, tennis court, security, BBQ pit, view etc.

And unless you have concrete statistics and fact to prove, if not please dont say that condo dwellers doesnt use their facilities.

[august]

chey, i thought got stories about "sightings" on old landed.

[proper-t]

chey, i thought got stories about "sightings" on old landed.

Yah....got one spirit here who refuses to leave.....

[teddybear]

Look at what you wrote below and it is obvious that you are saying that maintenance fees for condos is much more expensive compared to landed.
However, you are not foreright to clarify that for condo maintenance fees, people are paying also for usage of swimming pools, gym, children playground, car park, common areas greenery, BBQ pits, security guards improved security etc. What do you get for all the repairs and maintenance you pay for landed which is as much, if not more than condo?

My evidence is in S.40(10)/(11) of Building Maintenance & Strata Mgt Act. It is an offence if you do not pay your maintenance fees for strata units.




Why are you so argumentative? Did I say condo maintenance is more than landed? All I said is that there is no evidence to prove it one way or the other. Just because you have had a bad experience in your landed doesn't mean it is representative of the entire landed market unless you can tell us all here that you have stayed in over 50% of all the landed properties in Singapore.

Some people might just have bad luck in choosing a bad landed or condo unit which requires more maintenance.

3. Maintenance cost for landed vs condo/apts.

This has been discussed to no end and there has yet to be any empirical evidence or study to support either side so I will not comment further on which is more costly.

However, what has not been highlighted is the following:

Maintenance expenditure for landed is DISCRETIONARY whilst maintenance payments for condos and apts are MANDATORY.

What this means is that for landed, you can choose not to pay for repairs etc if you cannot afford it and put it off for later when cashflow permits however for condos and apts, you are subject to statutory law. The most pertinent being S.40(10)/(11) of Building Maintenance & Strata Mgt Act as reproduced below:




Note that the fine everyday is on top of any LATE PAYMENT interest that the MC may levy.

If you are desparate for cash, you wll also not be able to realise your proceeds form the sale of your condo/apt until you settle your mgt fees + interest. If you are really strapped for cash, you will have to beg, borrow or steal to cough up the cash for the fees + interest before you can even hope to get any money back from the sale of your condo/apt.

[proper-t]

Look at what you wrote below and it is obvious that you are saying that maintenance fees for condos is much more expensive compared to landed.
However, you are not foreright to clarify that for condo maintenance fees, people are paying also for usage of swimming pools, gym, children playground, car park, common areas greenery, BBQ pits, security guards improved security etc. What do you get for all the repairs and maintenance you pay for landed which is as much, if not more than condo?

Huh? Do you know the difference between discretionary and mandatory? It doesn't mean one is more expensive than the other

Perhaps you didn't read my first statement properly

This has been discussed to no end and there has yet to be any empirical evidence or study to support either side so I will not comment further on which is more costly

[sh]

What is the average built in size of a landed, 3000sqft? Please compare with the maintenance of a similar size condo... Don't think it's going to be $300, probably much much more...

[teddybear]

How to compare apple to orange?
Condo got swimming pool, gym, playground, greenery all around, tennis court, common facilities and big landscaping.

Landed 3000 sqft got what swimming pool, tennis court, ...???

End up people still unable to provide concrete evidence and claim that landed overall maintenance and costs is cheaper than condos despite having nothing that condos have!

What is the average built in size of a landed, 3000sqft? Please compare with the maintenance of a similar size condo... Don't think it's going to be $300, probably much much more...

[Ringo33]

landed owners here all sound damn broke man. earlier some say utility bill for landed home is lower than condo, and now someone is arguing that anything broke or leak in landed owner can choose not to repair. they call it "discretionary"

honestly, if you have to live like this, might as well sell the landed and live in HDB flat. Whats the point of clinging on to run down landed which you cant afford to repair. Ego perhaps?

[proper-t]

landed owners here all sound damn broke man. earlier some say utility bill for landed home is lower than condo, and now someone is arguing that anything broke or leak in landed owner can choose not to repair. they call it "discretionary"

honestly, if you have to live like this, might as well sell the landed and live in HDB flat. Whats the point of clinging on to run down landed which you cant afford to repair. Ego perhaps?

Eh? This is the second time you are back here again. Can you really pay heed to someone who says one thing but does another?

I am done with this thread. Good luck to your economic fairytale

Readers here are intelligent enough to know the difference between discretionary and mandatory expenditure and the implications of it in a down market. No need to try so hard to get an emotional response by insulting landed owners that they are broke. It just shows that you have indeed scraped the bottom of the barrel as far as a logical rebuttal is concerned.

[nav14]

Putting aside all the arguments here, I would say if you have a FREEHOLD landed property , do not ever sell it (unless upgrading to another landed), if you want to maximise your capital gains. There will be hardly any new supply of freehold landed property while the demand will only keep increasing. For condos, there are still many old freehold developments that can go en-bloc. So in the very long run even a Sembawang freehold landed will give better capital gains than a Dist 10 freehold condo.
I do not have any freehold landed but I wished I had.

[MLP]

Exactly. I have told the stubborn Ringo fellow that many landed property owners are waiting to buy another landed property when if the price drops. Landed property owners can see the values of their houses and they know very clearly that these are their prized investment that they won't let go easily even during down time.

Putting aside all the arguments here, I would say if you have a FREEHOLD landed property , do not ever sell it (unless upgrading to another landed), if you want to maximise your capital gains. There will be hardly any new supply of freehold landed property while the demand will only keep increasing. For condos, there are still many old freehold developments that can go en-bloc. So in the very long run even a Sembawang freehold landed will give better capital gains than a Dist 10 freehold condo.
I do not have any freehold landed but I wished I had.

[may2012]

Purely base on my experiences.

Stayed for 12 yrs in 2 landed Terraces before staying in 2 condos for 11yrs.

My landeds were broken into twice. As for my condos, no security problems at all.

Many landed owners take security for granted. In fact twice the theft enter my house thru my neighbour's unit.

Not forgetting public transports usually do not ply within landed estates. School going children and grannies have to be vigilant if they need to walk to a bus stop or MRT stations.

Beside the spade of break-ins in Siglap not too long ago, this is another reminder.....

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...glary-20130314

So security was one of the reasons we move to high rise condo w guards.

Landed owners save some money under false sense of security.

This is a Real Fact.

[Pinball]

can share how the burglar enter your house through your neighbour's house?

Purely base on my experiences.

Stayed for 12 yrs in 2 landed Terraces before staying in 2 condos for 11yrs.

My landeds were broken into twice. As for my condos, no security problems at all.

Many landed owners take security for granted. In fact twice the theft enter my house thru my neighbour's unit.

Not forgetting public transports usually do not ply within landed estates. School going children and grannies have to be vigilant if they need to walk to a bus stop or MRT stations.

Beside the spade of break-ins in Siglap not too long ago, this is another reminder.....

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...glary-20130314

So security was one of the reasons we move to high rise condo w guards.

Landed owners save some money under false sense of security.

This is a Real Fact.

[proper-t]

Purely base on my experiences.

Stayed for 12 yrs in 2 landed Terraces before staying in 2 condos for 11yrs.

My landeds were broken into twice. As for my condos, no security problems at all.

Many landed owners take security for granted. In fact twice the theft enter my house thru my neighbour's unit.

Not forgetting public transports usually do not ply within landed estates. School going children and grannies have to be vigilant if they need to walk to a bus stop or MRT stations.

Beside the spade of break-ins in Siglap not too long ago, this is another reminder.....

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...glary-20130314

So security was one of the reasons we move to high rise condo w guards.

Landed owners save some money under false sense of security.

This is a Real Fact.

Do you still own any of the terraces?

[proper-t]

Extract from a condo's resident's handbook...wow..scary.

4. All Maintenance Charges are payable on the 1st day of each quarter of a calendar year – January – March, April – June, July – September, October – December.

5. Late payment interest (rates to be determined by the Management) will be levied on Maintenance Charges not received after 30 days from the date of notice to pay.

6. Further legal action shall be taken should the Subsidiary Proprietor continue to default on Maintenance payment. The following action could be taken by the MCST to recover arrears :-

a. Lodge a charge against the said unit (SP will be prevented from selling the unit unless outstanding maintenance charges, with interest, are fully paid);

b. Application of garnishment order on the unit, if the Subsidiary Proprietor is collecting rental from the unit;

c. File legal claim at the Small Claims Tribunal;

d. Application to the courts to have the unit sold to recover all outstanding maintenance charges still owing

The above mentioned legal actions are enforceable under the BMSMA (2004)

[MLP]

If you stay in a landed house, most likely you will have a dog. In condo, very often pets are not allowed. The dog can help to guard your house.

In addition, it is advisable to install CCTV with alarm in your house since nowadays there are so many foreigners in Singapore.

Purely base on my experiences.

Stayed for 12 yrs in 2 landed Terraces before staying in 2 condos for 11yrs.

My landeds were broken into twice. As for my condos, no security problems at all.

Many landed owners take security for granted. In fact twice the theft enter my house thru my neighbour's unit.

Not forgetting public transports usually do not ply within landed estates. School going children and grannies have to be vigilant if they need to walk to a bus stop or MRT stations.

Beside the spade of break-ins in Siglap not too long ago, this is another reminder.....

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...glary-20130314

So security was one of the reasons we move to high rise condo w guards.

Landed owners save some money under false sense of security.

This is a Real Fact.

[fclim]

way ahead of you lah...

1998
Total no. of transactions for landed = 3,481
Total stock of landed = 63,920
% of owners who actually had to sell off during 1998 = 5.4%
Even if you add up both 1997 and 1998 numbers, more than 90% of landed owners did not have to sell during the crisis.
Looks like research and in-depth analysis is definitely not your cup of tea.

Let me complete the full picture. Many landed were bought in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. Even at the lowest point in 1999, the price index is still way higher than those in the 80's and early 90's. So, of course, everyone can hold wat...

So, if the index now drops to 200, it is a correction only. If it crashes to 10 which is 1975 price, see whether got people sell or not.

Therefore, it is incorrect to conclude that landed people got more holding power.

http://forums.condosingapore.com/att...1&d=1363334892

[proper-t]

Let me complete the full picture. Many landed were bought in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. Even at the lowest point in 1999, the price index is still way higher than those in the 80's and early 90's. So, of course, everyone can hold wat...

So, if the index now drops to 200, it is a correction only. If it crashes to 10 which is 1975 price, see whether got people sell or not.

Therefore, it is incorrect to conclude that landed people got more holding power.

http://forums.condosingapore.com/att...1&d=1363334892

What you are saying somehow doesn't gel. Are you saying that there were no condo and apt transactions in the 70s, 80s and 90s? Unless you can show the readers here that the transactions were mainly just landed during that period, then your theory doesn't hold. If there have been roughly the same proportion of non landed vs landed transactions throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s, why is it that the percentage of transactions of condo/apts during the crash was more than double that in percentage terms of landed. To the non-landed owners, wouldn't they have 'equal' holding if they had bought in the 70s, 80s and 90s as well?

Since you want to show that chart again, another glaring inconsistency to your observation is that detached, terrace and to a lesser extent, semi-d house ran up the most from 1994 onwards.

What do you think caused the spurt? There must have been quite a significant no. of transactions to cause the price index for those segments to peak so much. For the people who bought during this period, what 'buffer' are you talking about? Don't you think that they will be ones that will suffer the most? Yet, I have shown that less than 10% of the total stock of landed owners had to sell during the crash of 1998/99.

In comparison, apt and condos went up the least, shouldn't they enjoy a bigger buffer since their prices didn't go up as much ? Yet, my figures have shown that the no. of condo/apt owners who had to sell off was more than double (in percentage terms mind you) of the landed owners.

[august]

If you stay in a landed house, most likely you will have a dog. In condo, very often pets are not allowed. The dog can help to guard your house.

In addition, it is advisable to install CCTV with alarm in your house since nowadays there are so many foreigners in Singapore.

pets not allowed in condos???

[Blue]

Once u stayed in spacious landed, u probably wont want to squeeze in condos. U can play hide and seek in a landed, but certainly not for condo unit, cos a 360 degree turn, u can see everything!

Just like once u own a private car, u probably wont want to squeeze in buses / mrt trains.



The point about maintenance, what one pays for monthly maintenance in a condo is only for the external shared facilities, cleaning and security. These are mandatory whether or not there are damages, and whether or not the damages are critical. It does not cover your internal live-in area, which you still need to pay extra yourself.

Whereas for landed, indeed maintenance is discretionary mostly unless critical damages.

And the point about higher utilities bills, it is all about usage and not about the size although landed incurs more sanitary charges due to the number of bathrooms you have.

Property tax for landed (expressed as a % of the purchase price) is also lower than condo due to lower rental yield.

[Ringo33]

Once u stayed in spacious landed, u probably wont want to squeeze in condos. U can play hide and seek in a landed, but certainly not for condo unit, cos a 360 degree turn, u can see everything!

Just like once u own a private car, u probably wont want to squeeze in buses / mrt trains.



The point about maintenance, what one pays for monthly maintenance in a condo is only for the external shared facilities, cleaning and security. These are mandatory whether or not there are damages, and whether or not the damages are critical. It does not cover your internal live-in area, which you still need to pay extra yourself.

Whereas for landed, indeed maintenance is discretionary mostly unless critical damages.

And the point about higher utilities bills, it is all about usage and not about the size although landed incurs more sanitary charges due to the number of bathrooms you have.

Property tax for landed (expressed as a % of the purchase price) is also lower than condo due to lower rental yield.

Please stop your nonsense about utilities bill lah. last time people challenge you to show your bill you went into hide and seek.

wayang sia.

[Blue]

Please stop your nonsense about utilities bill lah. last time people challenge you to show your bill you went into hide and seek.

wayang sia.

Dunno who play hide and seek when the bet is placed higher at $5K wor. So u still wan to bet boh? My new semi d less than $250 utility bill per month, aimai?

[proper-t]

Dunno who play hide and seek when the bet is placed higher at $5K wor. So u still wan to bet boh? My new semi d less than $250 utility bill per month, aimai?

He won't lah. Afterwards lose, no money to pay his condo maintenance fees.

[Blue]

He won't lah. Afterwards lose, no money to pay his condo maintenance fees.

Tats true $5K can last him more than a year of maintenance fees.

[Ringo33]

BLUE, just wondering from SEP 2012 to this week you have not post anything on this forum and suddenly you felt the urge in doing so this week.

I just wondering have you been secretly and despicably posting using a different account??

[proper-t]

Imagine someone who makes a declaration and then completely goes against it not once, not twice but four times!

I wonder how much faith you can place on remarks or comments made by that person.

I am done with this thread. Good luck to your economic fairytale

[teddybear]

Once you have ever lived in bungalow in the sky, you will never want to live on a landed!
People who live in bungalow in the sky will not be bothered with that small additional maintenance fund costs.
It looks like people living in landed are very particular about saving those small maintenance costs, to the extend of delaying whatever repairs and maintenance they need to do? They are so cheapo / desperate / cheapskate? Now then I know!

Once u stayed in spacious landed, u probably wont want to squeeze in condos. U can play hide and seek in a landed, but certainly not for condo unit, cos a 360 degree turn, u can see everything!

Just like once u own a private car, u probably wont want to squeeze in buses / mrt trains.



The point about maintenance, what one pays for monthly maintenance in a condo is only for the external shared facilities, cleaning and security. These are mandatory whether or not there are damages, and whether or not the damages are critical. It does not cover your internal live-in area, which you still need to pay extra yourself.

Whereas for landed, indeed maintenance is discretionary mostly unless critical damages.

And the point about higher utilities bills, it is all about usage and not about the size although landed incurs more sanitary charges due to the number of bathrooms you have.

Property tax for landed (expressed as a % of the purchase price) is also lower than condo due to lower rental yield.

[proper-t]

Thank you for continually posting so that the thread gets 'uped'. Before all you readers rush off to procure your bungalow in the sky, it gives me a chance to remind readers here the dangers of not paying your condo maintenance fees which is mandatory and an offence. No cond/apt owner can escape be it an MM unit or a 'bungalow in the sky'.

Extract from a typical condo resident's handbook

5. Late payment interest (rates to be determined by the Management) will be levied on Maintenance Charges not received after 30 days from the date of notice to pay.

6. Further legal action shall be taken should the Subsidiary Proprietor continue to default on Maintenance payment. The following action could be taken by the MCST to recover arrears :-

a. Lodge a charge against the said unit (SP will be prevented from selling the unit unless outstanding maintenance charges, with interest, are fully paid);

b. Application of garnishment order on the unit, if the Subsidiary Proprietor is collecting rental from the unit;

c. File legal claim at the Small Claims Tribunal;

d. Application to the courts to have the unit sold to recover all outstanding maintenance charges still owing

The above mentioned legal actions are enforceable under the BMSMA (2004)

[MLP]

Some condos do have restrictions on dogs, especially BIG dogs. Your neighbours may not like your dog's barking and may complain to the management. You should check out on the pet policy of your condos. If you have more than one dog, better stay in a landed house.

pets not allowed in condos???

[fclim]

.....
Since you want to show that chart again, another glaring inconsistency to your observation is that detached, terrace and to a lesser extent, semi-d house ran up the most from 1994 onwards.
What do you think caused the spurt? There must have been quite a significant no. of transactions to cause the price index for those segments to peak so much. For the people who bought during this period, what 'buffer' are you talking about? Don't you think that they will be ones that will suffer the most? Yet, I have shown that less than 10% of the total stock of landed owners had to sell during the crash of 1998/99.
In comparison, apt and condos went up the least, shouldn't they enjoy a bigger buffer since their prices didn't go up as much ? Yet, my figures have shown that the no. of condo/apt owners who had to sell off was more than double (in percentage terms mind you) of the landed owners.

Simple.. Cos landed mostly own stay. Condos a lot bought for investment. Those who bought landed or condos in the 80s etc, got it cheap. Do you have data to show that those condo owners who sold bought them in the 80s?

I dont have all the data, but your conclusion based on just comparing transaction percentage is wrong as you do not have the full data. It is naive to say the least.

Btw, how do you know those condo sellers in 1997 period were not landed owners who bought the condos for investments? So these landed owners got holding power or not? I cannot conclude without more data.