$250m GCB for grab...

[Ringo33]

You have obviously not been following the thread. I just explained the possibility of conflict in post #52.

Instead of coming up with a logical counter, all you can dish out is to accuse me of implying this and implying that.

Wee and Kwek's thinking and personality may be totally different from CWK. Why are you comparing them to CWK?

As long as there is a possibility that there could be a conflict of interest, he may be of that mind too and could be the reason why he has decided not to proceed with redevelopment of the GCB.

Unless you can prove that there is absolutely zero possibility of a conflict arising, then you cannot dispute my statement

1) You talk about conflict of interest. I am asking you, what conflict of interest are you talking about here when WingTai doesnt sell GCB on that scale and there is no law against it.

2) You speak about the company act for director, I am asking you does director buying and selling property in his personal capacity to make money deem as conflict of interest?

3) You mentioned that as chairman of Wingtai could be worry about "perceive potential of conflict of interest". May I know what exact are you talking about? Perceive pontential conflict of interest, does sound like you are trying to say something but it means nothing.

[proper-t]

1) You talk about conflict of interest. I am asking you, what conflict of interest are you talking about here when WingTai doesnt sell GCB on that scale and there is no law against it.

2) You speak about the compact act for director, I am asking you does director buying and selling property in his personal capacity to make money deem as conflict of interest?

3) You mentioned that as chairman of Wingtai could be worry about "perceive potential of conflict of interest". May I know what exact are you talking about? Perceive pontential conflict of interest, does sound like you are trying to say something but it means nothing.

1. Refer to my scenario in post #52. Is there not a conflict there even though Wing Tai is not selling GCBs?

2. Firstly, there is NO compact act. There you go again trying to put words in my mouth again. Did I say that director buying and selling property in personal capacity is deemed as a conflict of interest? All I said is that in CWK's mind, he may view it as a possible conflict of interest if he redevelops and sells the GCB units as a new project.

3. Refer to my scenario in post #52. Won't people perceive that he steered that buyer to his GCB project instead of persuading that buyer to buy Wing Tai's Ardmore penthouse? Even though he may have actually tried his utmost to get the buyer to purchase the Wing Tai penthouse, the fact that the buyer bought his project instead will still give the impression that his interest was conflicted. So to avoid such perceptions, he may have decided not to embark on the redevelopment of the GCB and instead release the old property on a tender basis.

[Ringo33]

1. Refer to my scenario in post #52. Is there not a conflict there even though Wing Tai is not selling GCBs?

2. Firstly, there is NO compact act. There you go again trying to put words in my mouth again. Did I say that director buying and selling property in personal capacity is deemed as a conflict of interest? All I said is that in CWK's mind, he may view it as a possible conflict of interest if he redevelops and sells the GCB units as a new project.

3. Refer to my scenario in post #52. Won't people perceive that he steered that buyer to his GCB project instead of persuading that buyer to buy Wing Tai's Ardmore penthouse? Even though he may have actually tried his utmost to get the buyer to purchase the Wing Tai penthouse, the fact that the buyer bought his project instead will still give the impression that his interest was conflicted. So to avoid such perceptions, he may have decided not to embark on the redevelopment of the GCB and instead release the old property on a tender basis.

Do you realize that you are going round in circle conflicting your own statement.


Is WingTai chairman selling GCB consider conflict of interest? Yes?

So as chairman and employee of WingTai, no one is suppose to sell property? No?

So now you are also a mind reader huh?

[proper-t]

Do you realize that you are going round in circle conflicting your own statement.


Is WingTai chairman selling GCB consider conflict of interest? Yes?

So as chairman and employee of WingTai, no one is suppose to sell property? No?

So now you are also a mind reader huh?

You are the one not getting the point and keep making irrelevant statements.

My scenario in post #52 clearly shows a possible potential conflict of interest should he choose to redevelop and sell the GCB as a new project. Please dispute if you can.

As long as there exist the possibility, it is also fully possible that CWK may be of the mind that such a conflict exist and it could very well be one of the reasons that he decided not to redevelop.

I am not a mind reader which is why I have stated that it could be a possible reason. You on the other hand, refused to accept it but cannot prove that such a potential conflict does not exist at all.

So who is the one going around in circles now?

[Ringo33]

You are the one not getting the point and keep making irrelevant statements.

My scenario in post #52 clearly shows a possible potential conflict of interest should he choose to redevelop and sell the GCB as a new project. Please dispute if you can.

As long as there exist the possibility, it is also fully possible that CWK may be of the mind that such a conflict exist and it could very well be one of the reasons that he decided not to redevelop.

I am not a mind reader which is why I have stated that it could be a possible reason. You on the other hand, refused to accept it but cannot prove that such a potential conflict does not exist at all.

So who is the one going around in circles now?

You can come out with 1000 stories and scenario if you wish but you will never be able to tell us why LEGALLY there is a conflict of interest. and why director or chairman of developer cannot have property interest outside their listed company.

Yes I said legally, anything else is nothing but Rubbish

[proper-t]

You can come out with 1000 stories and scenario if you wish but you will never be able to tell us why LEGALLY there is a conflict of interest. and why director or chairman of developer cannot have property interest outside their listed company.

Yes I said legally, anything else is nothing but Rubbish

Anyone who has consulted a lawyer on conflict of interest in the Companies Act will get the same answer : its open to interpretation by the lawyers and more importantly the authorities/judiciary.

Since you say its rubbish, please enlighten all here why LEGALLY my scenario in post #52 is not admissible as a potential conflict of interest to be argued in a court of law. Please highlight the specific sections and sub-sections so that all here can learn.

[Ringo33]

Anyone who has consulted a lawyer on conflict of interest in the Companies Act will get the same answer : its open to interpretation by the lawyers and more importantly the authorities/judiciary.

Since you say its rubbish, please enlighten all here why LEGALLY my scenario in post #52 is not admissible as a potential conflict of interest to be argued in a court of law. Please highlight the specific sections and sub-sections so that all here can learn.

So based on your post #52, does it mean that as Chairman of WingTai, he should not engage in any property investment because anything that he sell in your contacts will be a conflict of interest? And if it applies to Chairman, then all employee of WingTai should not invest in property as well because it will be conflict of interest isnt it?

And how do you explain what Wee Cho Yaw and Kwek Leng Beng does with their private investment veh like Kheng Leong and HL Holdings who does sell property in direct competition with their company such as UOL and CDL. (Please talk about facts, not some colourful stories)




POST #52

What if he is hosting a dinner with the super wealthy and at the table, a super rich individual says he is considering either buying a penthouse at Ardmore area or a new bungalow in a prime area and ask for his recommendations.

What would be his response?

Assuming there are shareholders of Wing Tai sitting at the same table, what do you think will be their perception if that individual eventually bought his bungalow project even though he may not have said or recommended anything at the table.

The main thing is what people perceive to be a possible conflict. As long as he wants to avoid people having such perceptions, to him, it may be better to draw a distinct line.

This could also be one of the reasons why the property is going through a public tender.

[proper-t]

So based on your post #52, does it mean that as Chairman of WingTai, he should not engage in any property investment because anything that he sell in your contacts will be a conflict of interest? And if it applies to Chairman, then all employee of WingTai should not invest in property as well because it will be conflict of interest isnt it?

And how do you explain what Wee Cho Yaw and Kwek Leng Beng does with their private investment veh like Kheng Leong and HL Holdings who does sell property in direct competition with their company such as UOL and CDL. (Please talk about facts, not some colourful stories)




POST #52

Please stop going around in circles and answer my question posted earlier (which is reproduced below)

Since you say its rubbish, please enlighten all here why LEGALLY my scenario in post #52 is not admissible as a potential conflict of interest to be argued in a court of law. Please highlight the specific sections and sub-sections so that all here can learn.

If you can't support your statement then my view of the possibility that CWK could be of the mind that a conflict might exist stands.

[Ringo33]

Please stop going around in circles and answer my question posted earlier (which is reproduced below)

Since you say its rubbish, please enlighten all here why LEGALLY my scenario in post #52 is not admissible as a potential conflict of interest to be argued in a court of law. Please highlight the specific sections and sub-sections so that all here can learn.

If you can't support your statement then my view of the possibility that CWK could be of the mind that a conflict might exist stands.

Many post back I have already mentioned that you are going around in circle.

On on hand you say that as Chairman of WingTai, selling property in his personal capacity is conflict of interest to WingTai.

On the other hand you dare not say that as Chairman or even employee of Wingtai, no one should engage in buying and selling of property.

So now that you have trip over on what you said, you are asking me to tell you why it is wrong to trip over?

Please dont avoid my question leh. Many post back I already ask you to explain why is it ok for Wee Cho Yaw and Kwek Leng Beng does with their private investment veh like Kheng Leong and HL Holdings who does sell property in direct competition with their company such as UOL and CDL. (Please talk about facts, not some colourful stories)

And please dont go around in circle. You should come clean and explain yourself why chairman of Wingtai should not buy and sell property.

[proper-t]

Many post back I have already mentioned that you are going around in circle.

On on hand you say that as Chairman of WingTai, selling property in his personal capacity is conflict of interest to WingTai.

On the other hand you dare not say that as Chairman or even employee of Wingtai, no one should engage in buying and selling of property.

So now that you have trip over on what you said, you are asking me to tell you why it is wrong to trip over?

Please dont avoid my question leh. Many post back I already ask you to explain why is it ok for Wee Cho Yaw and Kwek Leng Beng does with their private investment veh like Kheng Leong and HL Holdings who does sell property in direct competition with their company such as UOL and CDL. (Please talk about facts, not some colourful stories)

And please dont go around is circle. You should come clean and explain yourself why chairman of Wingtai should not buy and sell property.

I have already answered and stated my case in post below

You are the one not getting the point and keep making irrelevant statements.

My scenario in post #52 clearly shows a possible potential conflict of interest should he choose to redevelop and sell the GCB as a new project. Please dispute if you can.

As long as there exist the possibility, it is also fully possible that CWK may be of the mind that such a conflict exist and it could very well be one of the reasons that he decided not to redevelop.

I am not a mind reader which is why I have stated that it could be a possible reason. You on the other hand, refused to accept it but cannot prove that such a potential conflict does not exist at all.

So who is the one going around in circles now?

whereby your response was that the scenario is legally 'rubbish'

You can come out with 1000 stories and scenario if you wish but you will never be able to tell us why LEGALLY there is a conflict of interest. and why director or chairman of developer cannot have property interest outside their listed company.

Yes I said legally, anything else is nothing but Rubbish

Rather than straying from the line of questioning and trying to put words in my mouth, please support your claim that the scenario is legally 'rubbish by answering the question below

Since you say its rubbish, please enlighten all here why LEGALLY my scenario in post #52 is not admissible as a potential conflict of interest to be argued in a court of law. Please highlight the specific sections and sub-sections so that all here can learn.

If you can't support your statement then my view of the possibility that CWK could be of the mind that a conflict might exist stands.

[hopeful]

No, I never said that. All I pointed out was that he may not want to put himself in a position where people might perceive or say there could be a possible conflict of interest and potentially run afoul of the authorities.

aren't there legal ways to get around the conflict of interest?
eg have a board vote whether to buy the land, he abstain from the vote, and decision will be decided by the rest of the board.
or hold auction, he excuse himself (as above) from the tender bidding by WT.

[proper-t]

aren't there legal ways to get around the conflict of interest?
eg have a board vote whether to buy the land, he abstain from the vote, and decision will be decided by the rest of the board.
or hold auction, he excuse himself (as above) from the tender bidding by WT.

This is a personal interest vs his public interest as Chairman of Wing Tai. I am no lawyer and there may be possible legal workarounds but as I have mentioned before, he may not even want to put himself in that position and most likely in the process, also have to disclose personal information to the Board of Wing Tai. Such resolutions may also be published in the annual report or open to public scrutiny.

[Ringo33]

All that you have done so far is telling stories like a kid on kindergarten. And keep referring back to the same story over and over again like it will become fact.

So as chairman of wing tai he should not sell his gcb at all because of potential conflict of interest. So what is he suppose to do? Give it away?

[hopeful]

All that you have done so far is telling stories like a kid on kindergarten. And keep referring back to the same story over and over again like it will become fact.

So as chairman of wing tai he should not sell his gcb at all because of potential conflict of interest. So what is he suppose to do? Give it away?

now you are putting words, it is not either or choice of selling to WT. he could sell to other parties instead of giving it away.

[Ringo33]

now you are putting words, it is not either or choice of selling to WT. he could sell to other parties instead of giving it away.

I think the concern propert highlighted is actually 3rd party because what if the 3rd party is also interested in wing tai property? That to him is conflict of interest. So I am asking what should he do?

[proper-t]

now you are putting words, it is not either or choice of selling to WT. he could sell to other parties instead of giving it away.

Thank you. I rest my case.

It is already reported in the news that the plot is to be sold in a tender process. The question being raised is why he did not redevelop the plot and sell it off himself as a personal venture.

I have cited some possible reasons :

1. He may want to avoid the possibility of a conflict of interest in view of his position as Chairman of Wing Tai. As you have pointed out, there may be legal workarounds but does he want to even put himself in that position, go through the hassle and in the process, disclose personal details about the project to the board?

2. He just may not want to go through the hassle of redeveloping the plot.

Someone here has just picked up on pt 1 and has been harping on it ever since endlessly trying to put words into my mouth.

[Ringo33]

Go read post 52 is you wish to know what propert is talking about

[proper-t]

Yes, please read post #52. Someone here obviously can't comprehend it.

[Ringo33]

Yes, please read post #52. Someone here obviously can't comprehend it.

You haven't tell me what should this poor chairman do with his property since everything he sell will be conflict of interest

[proper-t]

You haven't tell me what should this poor chairman do with his property since everything he sell will be conflict of interest

Still harping on the issue and trying to put words into my mouth?

Please go back to the line of questioning in this thread and substantiate your claim that the scenario is legally 'rubbish by answering the question below. You obviously cannot answer it which explains all your irrelevant statements and your poor attempts to implicate me.

Since you say its rubbish, please enlighten all here why LEGALLY my scenario in post #52 is not admissible as a potential conflict of interest to be argued in a court of law. Please highlight the specific sections and sub-sections so that all here can learn.

If you can't support your statement then my view of the possibility that CWK could be of the mind that a conflict might exist stands.

[hopeful]

.....

1. He may want to avoid the possibility of a conflict of interest in view of his position as Chairman of Wing Tai. As you have pointed out, there may be legal workarounds but does he want to even put himself in that position, go through the hassle and in the process, disclose personal details about the project to the board?
.....

i always like to follow the money
$300mil for 85,000, that is about 3500psf.

from squarefoot, the highest was 2007-09-18, 32H nassim road, 1899psf for area of 13,423sf.
2nd highest was 2010-04-20, psf 1800psf.

so if market value lets say 2200psf. the difference is 1300psf.
potential profit if he sell to wingtai is $110.5milion.
assuming he owe 50% of WT, then he effectively halve his profit to $55million, since $55mil is born by WT other shareholder's and $55mil is born by him. (it would be more profit if he owe 20% of WT, )

would $55million ADDITIONAL profit (on top of his normal profit selling at 2200psf) be worth considering to him?

afterall, i think there isn't much more additional info to disclose to the board, is there? since they moved around in same circle, etc.

as long as things are done in the open, declared, govt has no case even if the ceo of the company makes lousy investments, and run company to the ground.

[proper-t]

i always like to follow the money
$300mil for 85,000, that is about 3500psf.

from squarefoot, the highest was 2007-09-18, 32H nassim road, 1899psf for area of 13,423sf.
2nd highest was 2010-04-20, psf 1800psf.

so if market value lets say 2200psf. the difference is 1300psf.
potential profit if he sell to wingtai is $110.5milion.
assuming he owe 50% of WT, then he effectively halve his profit to $55million, since $55mil is born by WT other shareholder's and $55mil is born by him.

would $55million ADDITIONAL profit (on top of his normal profit selling at 2200psf) be worth considering to him?

afterall, i think there isn't much more additional info to disclose to the board, is there? since they moved around in same circle, etc.

as long as things are done in the open, declared, govt has no case even if the company makes lousy investments, run company to the ground.

The point being raised is not whether he should sell to WT as it is already announced that the plot is going to be sold via a tender process.

What is being being discussed is why he didn't sub-divide and re-develop the plot and sell it off as a personal GCB project.

One of the possible reasons I have mentioned could be the possibility of a potential conflict of interest if he embarks on the redevelopment route as a private venture. He may have just wanted to avoid this possible conflict and the likely hassles/disclosure accompanied by choosing to go the re-development route.

That is the point I am trying to make here.

If you are talking aout money, then its another matter.

[Ringo33]

Still harping on the issue and trying to put words into my mouth?

Please go back to the line of questioning in this thread and substantiate your claim that the scenario is legally 'rubbish by answering the question below. You obviously cannot answer it which explains all your irrelevant statements and your poor attempts to implicate me.

I am not sure what exactly you are talking about here and why you keep referring me back to your #52 post.


My first question was why didnt the chairman of wingtai try to redevelop this GCB and resell them for profit?

You comment was conflict of interest.

I am asking you what conflict of interest.

You said, that because he is does that, the potential customer of his GCBs could also be interested in WingTai property

So I am asking you now that what is this chairman going to do with his property since everything that he sell will also attract potential buyers who might also be interested in WingTai property.

[proper-t]

I am not sure what exactly you are talking about here and why you keep referring me back to your #52 post.


My first question was why didnt the chairman of wingtai try to redevelop this GCB and resell them for profit?

You comment was conflict of interest.

I am asking you what conflict of interest.

You said, that because he is does that, the potential customer of his GCBs could also be interested in WingTai property

So I am asking you now that what is this chairman going to do with his property since everything that he sell will also attract potential buyers who might also be interested in WingTai property.

Hasn't it been announced that he is aleady selling it via public tender?

Possibly, in his mind, re-developing and selling off as a new GCB project could be perceived as a possible or more onerous conflict of interest rather than selling via public tender hence it could count as one of the possible reasons why he did not embark on the re-development route.

[hopeful]

.....
What is being being discussed is why he didn't sub-divide and re-develop the plot and sell it off as a personal GCB project.
One of the possible reasons I have mentioned could be the possibility of a potential conflict of interest if he embarks on the redevelopment route as a private venture. He may have just wanted to avoid this possible conflict and the likely hassles/disclosure accompanied by choosing to go the re-development route.
That is the point I am trying to make here.
....

okay, beats me too why he didnt redevelop the plot or break it down in size.
possible guess would be
1) he has no intention of selling. just a publicity stunt.
2) he wants WT to buy over (if can) at high price, tender is open and above board.
3) maybe he wants to sell LH to WT, and he retain control of FH status via his investment company.?
4) more importantly, if he sell at 3500psf even for 15000sqft plot. nobody will buy?
Anybody has details of the tender documents?
lots of maybes.

but i dont really see a conflict of interest if he redeveloped the plot himself and sold each off piece by piece. caveat: i am not legally trained.

[Ringo33]

Hasn't it been announced that he is aleady selling it via public tender?

In his mind, re-developing and selling off as a new GCB project could be perceived as a possible or more onerous conflict of interest rather than selling via public tender hence it could count as one of the possible reasons why he did not embark on the re-development route.

What is stopping him from redeveloping and sell the GCB through public tender?

Like what you said in #52, what IF this chairman have dinner with potential buyer who might be interested in the public tender and also be interested in WingTai property? Is this conflict of interest?

[Ringo33]

okay, beats me too why he didnt redevelop the plot or break it down in size.
possible guess would be
1) he has no intention of selling. just a publicity stunt.
2) he wants WT to buy over (if can) at high price, tender is open and above board.
3) maybe he wants to sell LH to WT, and he retain control of FH status via his investment company.?
4) more importantly, if he sell at 3500psf even for 15000sqft plot. nobody will buy?
Anybody has details of the tender documents?
lots of maybes.

but i dont really see a conflict of interest if he redeveloped the plot himself and sold each off piece by piece. caveat: i am not legally trained.

If the intention is to sell it to Wingtai, the easiest way around it will be to use his private investment vehicle to establish a JV with WingTai to redevelop the site. He provide the land, the WingTai does the construction and marketing,

[proper-t]

okay, beats me too why he didnt redevelop the plot or break it down in size.
possible guess would be
1) he has no intention of selling. just a publicity stunt.
2) he wants WT to buy over (if can) at high price, tender is open and above board.
3) maybe he wants to sell LH to WT, and he retain control of FH status via his investment company.?
4) more importantly, if he sell at 3500psf even for 15000sqft plot. nobody will buy?
Anybody has details of the tender documents?
lots of maybes.

but i dont really see a conflict of interest if he redeveloped the plot himself and sold each off piece by piece. caveat: i am not legally trained.

Well bloomberg did report that he does live in another Nassim road property so this sale could be to boost the price of his asset. Who knows how many he may personally own in that area.

The Nassim Road site is owned by Winright Investment Pte, according to property records obtained by Bloomberg News. Cheng, and his wife, Helen Chow, who list their address at another Nassim Road home, are the shareholders of Winright, a company set up in March 1995 for “holding of property for long-term investment purposes,” according to company records obtained by Bloomberg News.

The conflict could arise in the following situtation below:

What if he is hosting a dinner with the super wealthy and at the table, a super rich individual says he is considering either buying a penthouse at Ardmore area (which Wing Tai is currentl selling) or a new bungalow in a prime area and ask for his recommendations.

What would be his response?

Assuming there are shareholders of Wing Tai sitting at the same table, what do you think will be their perception if that individual eventually bought his bungalow project even though he may not have said or recommended anything at the table.

The main thing is what people perceive to be a possible conflict. As long as he wants to avoid people having such perceptions, to him, it may be better to draw a distinct line.

This could also be one of the reasons why the property is going through a public tender.

[proper-t]

What is stopping him from redeveloping and sell the GCB through public tender?

Like what you said in #52, what IF this chairman have dinner with potential buyer who might be interested in the public tender and also be interested in WingTai property? Is this conflict of interest?

Tenders are usually called for completed projects and usually applies for old resale properties. Sale of new properties will be governed by the Housing Developer act, if applicable.

As also mentioned, he may also be reluctant to disclose the details of his re-development private venture if he is of the mind that it may constitute a possible conflict of interest and have to declare it to the Board. Better to avoid the hassle/disclosure.

[Ringo33]

Tenders are usually called for completed projects and usually applies for old resale properties. Sale of new properties will be governed by the Housing Developer act, if applicable.

As also mentioned, he may also be reluctant to disclose the details of his re-development private venture if he is of the mind that it may constitute a possible conflict of interest and have to declare it to the Board. Better to avoid the hassle/disclosure.

1) Are you saying that if he redeveloped his GCB, he cannot sell them through public tender? Can tell us which law states that? Or are you making your own law and assumptions?

2) wont selling his GCB through public tender could possibly be conflict of interest to wingtai since potential buyer could also be Wingtai potential customers?