Ensuring fairness in home ownership

[mermaid]

Published on Sep 04, 2013

THE current policy requiring private property owners to sell their homes if they buy HDB flats affects many retirees who want to downgrade and rent out their residences ("Home ownership rules: HDB replies", Aug 23; and "Minimum occupation period not the issue" by Mrs Chloe Loke, Forum Online, last Wednesday).

In contrast, HDB flat owners, after satisfying the minimum occupation period, can buy private properties and choose to keep their flats. They have the benefit of renting out either their HDB flats or private properties.

With the huge supply of private properties coming on-stream over the next few years to cater to the rental market, perhaps it is timely for the HDB to review its policy of allowing the rental of whole HDB flats.

It should continue to allow an HDB flat owner who buys private property after satisfying the minimum occupation period to retain the flat - but he must continue to live in it.

To ensure fairness, a private property owner who buys an HDB flat must also live in it.

Since both HDB flat owner and private property owner must live in their flats, this will leave them the option of renting out their private properties, ensuring sufficient private homes in the rental market.

http://www.straitstimes.com/premium/...rship-20130904

[mermaid]

personally I feel tat a pte ppty owner shd be allowed to buy a HDB flat after satisfying the 5 yrs MOP for pte, coz the net impact at the end of the day is the same.

[DaytonaSS]

Thats assuming everyone is able to afford a private condo rental. The person write without using his brain.

[mermaid]

Thats assuming everyone is able to afford a private condo rental. The person write without using his brain.

tat is not the point tat he is trying to bring across.

[sporadic]

My view is that the policy should be that either all can own both (HDB and pte) or all cannot.
It's stupid to only allow people who buy HDB first to buy pte , but not the other way round.

[mermaid]

My view is that the policy should be that either all can own both (HDB and pte) or all cannot.
It's stupid to only allow people who buy HDB first to buy pte , but not the other way round.

totally agree wif u.
No one will question how u wanna the rule to be like as long as u r fair to everyone.

I notice tat many times, it is not tat govt hv bad policies. rather the policies r skewed in favour of certain categories of ppl which make the public buay song.

[flxcat]

Oh no we are back on this topic again

Not going to say much, just wait and see the regular updates on the number of HDB rental application, is it going to keep going up till 2016 or not.

If keep going up, all I can guess is that the current policy is bias towards closing the wealth gap and is part of a bigger picture the government is looking at. Only people in the known will know. Definitely not layman like me

[mermaid]

Oh no we are back on this topic again

Not going to say much, just wait and see the regular updates on the number of HDB rental application, is it going to keep going up till 2016 or not.

If keep going up, all I can guess is that the current policy is bias towards closing the wealth gap and is part of a bigger picture the government is looking at. Only people in the known will know. Definitely not layman like me

lol ... u seems to suggest to me tat a person is considered as not wealthy if he buys a hdb 1st wor ...

[Amber Woods]

Thats assuming everyone is able to afford a private condo rental. The person write without using his brain.

You need to think deeper before making such comments.

During the earlier years, HDB flat owners could only rent out their spare rooms. If a family wanted to rent the whole apartment, they need to look at private property. Many HDB flat owners then locked up one room and rent out the entire flat anyway to beat the rule.

When there was a shortage of rented properties, the government allowed the renting of whole flat with the Board's approval. To this day, the policy has not been reversed.

Now that there could be an over supply of private properties, diverging the rental of whole flat back to the private market makes a lot of sense. HDB flats thus become a home for own stay. HDB owners can continue to rent out their spare rooms for extra incomes.

This proposed shift in policy will ensure that rental of private properties will not crush.

As long as there is sufficient rental units in the private market and HDB rooms for rental, market forces will ensure that rentals will be competitive. Those can afford to pay a little more can rent rooms in private flats or the entire apartment. Those who are on a smaller budget can rent rooms in HDB flats.

There is nothing new in the suggestion. The writer was simply suggesting that we should go back to where we were since now supply is catching up or even exceeding demand in the coming years.

[mianbao]

One way is to vary the ABSD for HDB to be higher than that for pte property?

[flxcat]

lol ... u seems to suggest to me tat a person is considered as not wealthy if he buys a hdb 1st wor ...

Ok ok my bad, generally not as wealthy based on official income of less $10k to qualify BTO HDB.

There is always exception where I ever viewed a 5rm HDB, that is for sales but the unit in its original state as collected keys from HDB, no renovation at all and not even the lights.

Such owners I would say wealthy enough to have it empty for 5years MOP before putting up in market as resale.

[Eh]

personally I feel tat a pte ppty owner shd be allowed to buy a HDB flat after satisfying the 5 yrs MOP for pte, coz the net impact at the end of the day is the same.

It used to be allowed until there is a change of policy a few years back. So maybe let's take a step back and ask why govt change it?

[mermaid]

Ok ok my bad, generally not as wealthy based on official income of less $10k to qualify BTO HDB.

Yr stmt is only true if u compare BTO owners with those whose combined income > $10k.

Eligible for BTO only concludes tat the person is married, nothing else. Prior to Jul 2013, singles regardless of whether rich or poor can only buy resale.

Hence many BTO married couples who bought BTO at young age followed by pte could be far richer den the singles who can only afford a pte condo.

[flxcat]

Yr stmt is only true if u compare BTO owners with those whose combined income > $10k.

Eligible for BTO only concludes tat the person is married, nothing else. Prior to Jul 2013, singles regardless of whether rich or poor can only buy resale.

Hence many BTO married couples who bought BTO at young age followed by pte could be far richer den the singles who can only afford a pte condo.

I'm in agreement with your comment.
In fact recollecting many new couples back then focused to work hard and aim to pay down their BTO flat before upgrading to a bigger HDB flat or EC or PC, as there is no option to rent out their HDB while upgraded to stay in PC.

As for singles, all I could say policy was discriminating them back then as government is pro marriage and procreate

Ok let's focus on the main discussion of this tread you started on fairness of ownership. Cheers

[mermaid]

It used to be allowed until there is a change of policy a few years back. So maybe let's take a step back and ask why govt change it?

Why they change it could well be as per wat Amber woods has explained. But do you think it should be reverted?

Ok let's focus on the main discussion of this tread you started on fairness of ownership. Cheers

Do u think the change is fair?
I highly doubt govt will wanna revert the rule coz tat will perhaps cause a mad rush for HDB flats?

[Amber Woods]

Why they change it could well be as per wat Amber woods has explained. But do you think it should be reverted?



Do u think the change is fair?
I highly doubt govt will wanna revert the rule coz tat will perhaps cause a mad rush for HDB flats?

If owners of HDB flat have to live in the flat, there may not be a rush to buy HDB flats. However, if HDB continues to allow rental of whole flat after MOP, there will be a mad rush.

[mermaid]

If owners of HDB flat have to live in the flat, there may not be a rush to buy HDB flats. However, if HDB continues to allow rental of whole flat after MOP, there will be a mad rush.

hmmm ... which way is better?

1. allow citizens to hold both pte & hdb regardless of which order but they will nid to stay in HDB, can only rent out condo.

2. Stick with the current "unfair" rule.

If allow option 1, it could mean tat there will not be enuff affordable housing for non citizens to rent since all existing owners who sublet the whole flat hv to move back to HDB ...
If more r being force to the pte markets, rental/demands for pte could soar higher ...
tink tis is not wat the govt wan oso

[Amber Woods]

hmmm ... which way is better?

1. allow citizens to hold both pte & hdb regardless of which order but they will nid to stay in HDB, can only rent out condo.

2. Stick with the current "unfair" rule.

If allow option 1, it could mean tat there will not be enuff affordable housing for non citizens to rent since all existing owners who sublet the whole flat hv to move back to HDB ...
If more r being force to the pte markets, rental/demands for pte could soar higher ...
tink tis is not wat the govt wan oso

If the market has ample supply of private apartments for rental, rental will always be affordable. As it is now, the rental for some mass market condo is no more than that of HDB flats. What would happen if new stream of new PCs become available over the next few years? The rental for private PC will be depressed further.

[chestnut]

Look at this

http://www.singstat.gov.sg/publicati...13/yos2013.pdf

Check item 4.2
from 2006 to 2012 - condo increased from 114.6K to 139.9K - in total it increased 25.3K
in 2011, condo dropped... Remember the years of enbloc....
from 3006 to 2012 - total housing increased from 1.054.1mil to 1.152mil - a total increase of 100,000 units...

Check item 2.1
from 2006 to 2012, population increased from 4.4mil to 5.3mil - in total it increase 900K

Now compare the 2 - population vs housing.... 900K increase in population vs 100k increase in housing of all types...

You can minus construction workers, etc.... and come up with your own conclusion... You can look at population of Singapore residents and come up with your own conclusion.....

Every year you see population stats.... from 2005, etc.... Where is the population stats for 2013???? Can someone tell me the population of Singapore for the year 2013??? Food for thought....

[Eh]

Why they change it could well be as per wat Amber woods has explained. But do you think it should be reverted?



Do u think the change is fair?
I highly doubt govt will wanna revert the rule coz tat will perhaps cause a mad rush for HDB flats?

Ok lets understand why it was implemented. According to one of the "complaints", private property owners bought resale HDB to invest and "speculate" or rent out HDB to earn additional passive income. It can be quite easily achieved when another rule, taking bank loan and after 1 year can sell or 2 1/2(or 3?) years later, can rent whole unit out. These "may have" push the price of resale flats up. Of course not only private property owners, PRs who bought resale and can only take bank loan took advantage of it too.

I have no problem reverting the policy, as long as once they bought a hdb resale, they must stay in hdb and fulfill the MOP. After that they want to do what is their business. Of course they can still keep their private property if they want to.

[mermaid]

Ok lets understand why it was implemented. According to one of the "complaints", private property owners bought resale HDB to invest and "speculate" or rent out HDB to earn additional passive income. It can be quite easily achieved when another rule, taking bank loan and after 1 year can sell or 2 1/2(or 3?) years later, can rent whole unit out. These "may have" push the price of resale flats up. Of course not only private property owners, PRs who bought resale and can only take bank loan took advantage of it too.

pls la, even if a person buys hdb 1st followed by pte, there is always a case of using the HDB as a speculative instrument wat, hence the sequence is not impt at all.

[mermaid]

If the market has ample supply of private apartments for rental, rental will always be affordable. As it is now, the rental for some mass market condo is no more than that of HDB flats. What would happen if new stream of new PCs become available over the next few years? The rental for private PC will be depressed further.

I agree wif u only if our population is not set to increase to 6.9mil.

the oversupply tat we r gonna see in the next 1-2 yrs is only temporal due to a mismatch. when the population gradually increases, we will be faced with inadequate supply/at most balance supply. So if there is no oversupply, how to find affordable depressed pte rental for such ppl?

[Amber Woods]

I agree wif u only if our population is not set to increase to 6.9mil.

the oversupply tat we r gonna see in the next 1-2 yrs is only temporal due to a mismatch. when the population gradually increases, we will be faced with inadequate supply/at most balance supply. So if there is no oversupply, how to find affordable depressed pte rental for such ppl?

The government is controlling the supply and demand both in term of population and housing. Do you think the government want to make the same mistake as what Mr Mah did by under building for the last 10 years?

Mr Khaw and DPM Therman have repeatedly said that housing will remain affordable and the government will build up supply before demand.

[mermaid]

Look at this

http://www.singstat.gov.sg/publicati...13/yos2013.pdf

Check item 4.2
from 2006 to 2012 - condo increased from 114.6K to 139.9K - in total it increased 25.3K
in 2011, condo dropped... Remember the years of enbloc....
from 3006 to 2012 - total housing increased from 1.054.1mil to 1.152mil - a total increase of 100,000 units...

Check item 2.1
from 2006 to 2012, population increased from 4.4mil to 5.3mil - in total it increase 900K

Now compare the 2 - population vs housing.... 900K increase in population vs 100k increase in housing of all types...

You can minus construction workers, etc.... and come up with your own conclusion... You can look at population of Singapore residents and come up with your own conclusion.....

Every year you see population stats.... from 2005, etc.... Where is the population stats for 2013???? Can someone tell me the population of Singapore for the year 2013??? Food for thought....

by rite when population increases at a much faster rate than the increase in housing, we shd be forever r very much under-supplied even though govt ramped up the supply recently.
But how come our rental market did experience a slow down in demand as if we r oversupplied huh?

[Eh]

pls la, even if a person buys hdb 1st followed by pte, there is always a case of using the HDB as a speculative instrument wat, hence the sequence is not impt at all.

Exactly. The policy is more reactive than anything.

[mermaid]

The government is controlling the supply and demand both in term of population and housing. Do you think the government want to make the same mistake as what Mr Mah did by under building for the last 10 years?

Mr Khaw and DPM Therman have repeatedly said that housing will remain affordable and the government will build up supply before demand.

I think the rental market for both hdb & pte will still be healthy, juz tat new launches & resale market (for both) will slow down tremendously due to TDSR/new PR rule.

ABSD/SSD hv hope of being lifted soon?

[Kelonguni]

ABSD/SSD hv hope of being lifted soon?

Actually with the TDSR in place, all the other duties become redundant, as they make private properties that much more unaffordable. I think they will time it for maximum "leverage" though. Think GE 2016.

[chestnut]

by rite when population increases at a much faster rate than the increase in housing, we shd be forever r very much under-supplied even though govt ramped up the supply recently.
But how come our rental market did experience a slow down in demand as if we r oversupplied huh?

For which quarter???

https://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/text/2013/pr13-47.html

Rentals of private residential properties increased by 0.3% in 2nd Quarter 2013, which is significantly lower than the 0.8% increase in 1st Quarter 2013 (see Annexes A-3 & A-4).

https://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2013/pr13-47a3.pdf

http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2013/pr13-24a3.pdf

[mermaid]

Actually with the TDSR in place, all the other duties become redundant, as they make private properties that much more unaffordable. I think they will time it for maximum "leverage" though. Think GE 2016.

but if they cont'd the absd/ssd till 2016, I tink resale market will be badly hit ...

For which quarter???

recent mths la ... rental rates dropped.

[chestnut]

but if they cont'd the absd/ssd till 2016, I tink resale market will be badly hit ...

The days of making "money" from properties are over.... Hahahahahahahaha