Singapore Property Downcycle

[teddybear]

Govt will be very HAPPY to LEASE you 99-years leasehold properties and make you pay TOP $$$ of >S$1700+ psf to be their PREFERRED TENANT for 99 years !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JLD is just one of the many exciting projects that government is doing to decentralize commercial activities.
I am sure you must have noticed there are now fewer international school kids in central region.

[Ringo33]

Govt will be very HAPPY to LEASE you 99-years leasehold properties and make you pay TOP $$$ of >S$1700+ psf to be their PREFERRED TENANT for 99 years !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We all know that the very old FH property you own doesnt belongs to you forever, you are just a caretaker. Eventually it will be too old and be sold for rebuilding.

[DC33_2008]

Looking at what happen to HDB resale market now. OCR are supported partially by hdb upgraders. Watch closely at those OCR projects completing at punggol. HDB has to give more time for hdb upgraders to sell their flats. All these are not very promising sign.

[DC33_2008]

Bro, it is the FH land and not just the building.

We all know that the very old FH property you own doesnt belongs to you forever, you are just a caretaker. Eventually it will be too old and be sold for rebuilding.

[Arcachon]

[Ringo33]

Bro, it is the FH land and not just the building.

If 99LH = $1000psf
Does 999LH = $10,000psf?
or FH = $100,000psf?

[Ringo33]

Looking at what happen to HDB resale market now. OCR are supported partially by hdb upgraders. Watch closely at those OCR projects completing at punggol. HDB has to give more time for hdb upgraders to sell their flats. All these are not very promising sign.

Its expect that Punggol and Sengkang will be affected the most due to too much new supply in the pipe line. For matured district, the impact will be very marginal

[DC33_2008]

I only know FH will outlast LH.

If 99LH = $1000psf
Does 999LH = $10,000psf?
or FH = $100,000psf?

[DC33_2008]

Hope you are right. But if this effect is duplicated in all the other OCRs, it will be real bad news for them.

Its expect that Punggol and Sengkang will be affected the most due to too much new supply in the pipe line. For matured district, the impact will be very marginal

[teddybear]

Ringo and many others would choose and want you to believe their 99 years leasehold properties have no difference to Freehold properties, and hence they are getting the best of both worlds - Pay 15-20% less than FH properties and getting higher rental yields than FH properties!!! It seems that even the whole machinery also want people to believe this is so because the valuation of a 99 years leasehold properties is only 15-20% from that of FH properties and they will only want to sell you 99 years leasehold properties (they won't sell you FH anymore!)

But as we know, once the properties is >30 years old, there will be very few buyers, if any. Those owners will soon be left carrying the babies! I know of many people who have been flipping 99 years leasehold properties and selling to others to carry the babies once those properties hit 10 years old or more and telling people that these 99 years leasehold properties they are selling are value for money because they have higher rental yields than more expensive FH properties!

And only idiot will say that owning FH properties you don't own them forever!!! Please wake up lah, only your 99 years leasehold properties you DON'T EVEN OWN THEM because you are just TENANT for 99 years to these 99 years leasehold properties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bro, it is the FH land and not just the building.

We all know that the very old FH property you own doesnt belongs to you forever, you are just a caretaker. Eventually it will be too old and be sold for rebuilding.

[Ringo33]

Hope you are right. But if this effect is duplicated in all the other OCRs, it will be real bad news for them.

Study the masterplan 2014 and GLS, you will know why not all OCR are the same.

[DC33_2008]

Not the same but similar.

Study the masterplan 2014 and GLS, you will know why not all OCR are the same.

[Ringo33]

Ringo and many others would choose and want you to believe their 99 years leasehold properties have no difference to Freehold properties, and hence they are getting the best of both worlds - Pay 15-20% less than FH properties and getting higher rental yields than FH properties!!! It seems that even the whole machinery also want people to believe this is so because the valuation of a 99 years leasehold properties is only 15-20% from that of FH properties and they will only want to sell you 99 years leasehold properties (they won't sell you FH anymore!)

But as we know, once the properties is >30 years old, there will be very few buyers, if any. Those owners will soon be left carrying the babies! I know of many people who have been flipping 99 years leasehold properties and selling to others to carry the babies once those properties hit 10 years old or more and telling people that these 99 years leasehold properties they are selling are value for money because they have higher rental yields than more expensive FH properties!

And only idiot will say that owning FH properties you don't own them forever!!! Please wake up lah, only your 99 years leasehold properties you DON'T EVEN OWN THEM because you are just TENANT for 99 years to these 99 years leasehold properties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How can you own a FH property FOREVER when the building are not build to last forever, nor will it make sense to preserve it for ever.
The only chance you could do that is if you are Peter lim who own the entire apartment block for himself. Then again, he is peter lim, and you are just Teddybear who live in the wrong side of CCR.

[teddybear]

I think you are really stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!! one word: STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FH property means : FH land and property.

You never see properties >100 years old Europe?

Many properties can last >100 years old, even >200 years old!
But too bad, your 99 years Leasehold properties you MUST return to Govt after 99 years lease is UP even thought it can can still be lived in because you are just tenant for 99 years only!!!!!!!!! So simple you don't understand?????????????

How can you own a FH property FOREVER when the building are not build to last forever, nor will it make sense to preserve it for ever.
The only chance you could do that is if you are Peter lim who own the entire apartment block for himself. Then again, he is peter lim, and you are just Teddybear who live in the wrong side of CCR.

[Ringo33]

I think you are really stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!! one word: STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FH property means : FH land and property.

You never see properties >100 years old Europe?

Many properties can last >100 years old, even >200 years old!
But too bad, your 99 years Leasehold properties you MUST return to Govt after 99 years lease is UP even thought it can can still be lived in because you are just tenant for 99 years only!!!!!!!!! So simple you don't understand?????????????

For someone who is living in the wrong side of CCR, its pretty obvious that you would like to paint a picture that FH property = Forever. If your argument would to hold any water than the premium for FH property vs LH on the same location should easily be 100x more than what LH property is worth.

In reality is that FH property in the same location is only worth around 20% more than LH, hence it only goes to show that the FH property is never meant to be holding forever.

If you think otherwise, please show us some numbers instead of big talk and no fact. or ALL FART NO SHIT (EDB)

[teddybear]

I already said you are really very stupid and you don't admit it?!!!!!!!!!!!!

Show you the number? How when the number now is manipulated so that you all stupid idiot will buy 99 years leasehold?!

Ok, Challenge you to do A TEST: Tell the govt that you want to buy the land from them at 10x the price at "FREEHOLD" condition, not "99 years LEASEHOLD", and see whether they are willing to sell to you or not?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For someone who is living in the wrong side of CCR, its pretty obvious that you would like to paint a picture that FH property = Forever. If your argument would to hold any water than the premium for FH property vs LH on the same location should easily be 100x more than what LH property is worth.

In reality is that FH property in the same location is only worth around 20% more than LH, hence it only goes to show that the FH property is never meant to be holding forever.

If you think otherwise, please show us some numbers instead of big talk and no fact. or ALL FART NO SHIT (EDB)

I think you are really stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!! one word: STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FH property means : FH land and property.

You never see properties >100 years old Europe?

Many properties can last >100 years old, even >200 years old!
But too bad, your 99 years Leasehold properties you MUST return to Govt after 99 years lease is UP even thought it can can still be lived in because you are just tenant for 99 years only!!!!!!!!! So simple you don't understand?????????????

[Ringo33]

I already said you are really very stupid and you don't admit it?!!!!!!!!!!!!

Show you the number? How when the number now is manipulated so that you all stupid idiot will buy 99 years leasehold?!

Ok, Challenge you to do A TEST: Tell the govt that you want to buy the land from them at 10x the price at "FREEHOLD" condition, not "99 years LEASEHOLD", and see whether they are willing to sell to you or not?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like I said before FH property doesnt make you the owner forever because we all know that old condo and apartment or even landed property will eventually be torn down for rebuilding, by then the FH condo which you "hope" to hold forever will be sold to developer for en bloc and resold in the market as new launch.
And this is a FACTS so please dont be so gullible to believe that the FH property you own will be yours forever, unless of course if you are Peter Lim who own and kept his entire block and land for himself.

If what you said holds any water, then FH apartment in the same location will not just command a mere 20% premium over LH99, it should be

LH99 = $1000psf
LH999 = $10,000psf because its lease is 10 times longer?
FH = >$100,000psf because its FOREVER??

[AssetRichMoneyPoor]

Bro you are wrong. Singapore is too young a nation for most to grasp the difference between leasehold and freehold. However the day beckons and you will again realized that's just your opinion and a misjudged one.

You should see more of the world than coop up in your 24/7 hole.

[Ringo33]

Bro you are wrong. Singapore is too young a nation for most to grasp the difference between leasehold and freehold. However the day beckons and you will again realized that's just your opinion and a misjudged one.

You should see more of the world than coop up in your 24/7 hole.

Singapore is turning 50 years old next year, which are the oldest FH or 999 condo projects in Singapore? Pandan Valley, TOP 1978, approaching 40 years in 2018.
Current transaction

Price : $1000-$1100psf
Rent : $1.9-2.9psf

How come so cheap? Because its old and its costly to maintain and very soon it will be going for En Bloc. Forever? dream on.

[AssetRichMoneyPoor]

You are just further validating my point. SG is a young nation.
You really should go out see the world more.

[teddybear]

En bloc? What if it can't be enbloc and the property obviously can be lived in after 99 years? (since they are made of concrete, not wood!)
Oh No, you MUST return to the govt for FREE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pity all those owners getting ZERO Dollar for owning a 99 years Leasehold properties for 99 years !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Singapore is turning 50 years old next year, which are the oldest FH or 999 condo projects in Singapore? Pandan Valley, TOP 1978, approaching 40 years in 2018.
Current transaction

Price : $1000-$1100psf
Rent : $1.9-2.9psf

How come so cheap? Because its old and its costly to maintain and very soon it will be going for En Bloc. Forever? dream on.

[DC33_2008]

Bro 33. It is the price of FH land that escalate faster than the construction cost of the building in a land scarce country like Singapore. Why do you think FEO built the condo, The Shore (at east coast), on their FH land but sell as leasehold condo. NG family will have the land generation after generation. Got it?

[Ringo33]

You are just further validating my point. SG is a young nation.
You really should go out see the world more.

I have already stated my point very clearly using Pandan Valley as an example, so I am not sure what you are talking about Singapore being a young nation or seeing the world.

The only thing which I am not seeing till now is a good explanation on how to keep a condo FOREVER.

BTW, have you decided to retire your old forum account?

[invigorated]

I have already stated my point very clearly using Pandan Valley as an example, so I am not sure what you are talking about Singapore being a young nation or seeing the world.

The only thing which I am not seeing till now is a good explanation on how to keep a condo FOREVER.

BTW, have you decided to retire your old forum account?

Just thinking aloud, what would be the value of a leasehold condo at 90 years old compared with a fh property, if it isn't en bloc?

What kind of value will a sub 10 years condo have vis a vis a freehold one? I echo the thoughts of some forumers here that Singapore is still a young nation and with such a surge in properties, won't be surprised to see many condos without en bloc potential at end of lease.

[el loco]

Freehold land is also subjected to Nation building.Once they wanna build a new highway or mrt. Say bye bye to yr freehold land.

[heehee]

You talk as though our govt are bandits and they take without paying market rate???
Please don't make such irresponsible comments!

Freehold land is also subjected to Nation building.Once they wanna build a new highway or mrt. Say bye bye to yr freehold land.

[Arcachon]

UOL is top bidder for Eng Cheong Tower

7 Jan 05

Its offer for maiden collective sale of 99-year site crosses reserve price

By KALPANA RASHIWALA

UNITED Overseas Land has emerged as the top bidder for Eng Cheong Tower, with an offer above the reserve price, sources told BT.


A deal has yet to be inked but assuming the property fetches $46 million, the price works out to about $233 per square foot of potential gross floor area. That includes development charges (DC) and a premium to top up the site's lease to 99 years.

There are 65 years remaining on the leasehold site along North Bridge Road, and it could cost an estimated $8.5 million to top it back up to 99 years.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=358211

Eng Cheong a good collective sale model

11 Jan 05

In principle approval from SLA to top up leases can help push en bloc sales and thus save the city of many eyesores, writes KALPANA RASHIWALA

THE recent sale of Eng Cheong Tower, the first collective sale of a 99-year leasehold property, has not only set a precedent for more en bloc sales of such properties but can also be used as an urban redevelopment strategy, say market watchers.



What facilitated the $47.5 million sale to United Overseas Land and Low Keng Huat was an unprecedented decision by the Singapore Land Authority to grant in-principle approval to top up the lease of the site from the remaining 65 years to the original 99 years. In the past, SLA had processed requests for lease upgrading only on formal application, which requires more detailed submissions and takes a longer time.

'Developers would not take the risk of buying Eng Cheong Tower, which has 65 years unexpired in its lease, for redevelopment and sale,' said Foo Suan Peng, executive director of Knight Frank who was involved in brokering the deal.

'If left alone, such buildings on sites with leases diminishing with each passing year, will depreciate in value, leaving their owners with little incentive for upgrading the properties. They may deteriorate into urban blight,' he added.

One solution could be for the government to step in and acquire such sites. 'But then again, compensation is always a thorny issue and land acquisition by the state seldom leaves property owners happy,' he noted.

By securing SLA's in-principle nod for a lease top-up, a developer can enter more confidently into a deal to buy such a site, although the land premium for the lease upgrade will still be finalised by SLA only later.

'The precedent set by Eng Cheong Tower can be used as a template for a national urban planning policy to prevent urban deterioration as the lease nears expiry and, at the same time, help rejuvenate the city,' said Mr Foo.

Such a strategy allows the market to decide when and how redevelopment should take place, with the state playing a supporting role, in terms of processing applications for upgrading the lease and redeveloping the site. Other examples of ageing leasehold properties are Golden Mile Tower and Golden Mile Complex along Beach Road, near Eng Cheong Tower, and Pearl Bank apartments in Chinatown.

More choice sites facing similar circumstance that could potentially become collective sale candidates include Grangeford, Mount Elizabeth Medical Centre and Orchard Bel-Air in the prime districts 9,10 and 11, and Mandarin Gardens and Bayshore Park along the east coast.

Like Eng Cheong Tower, all these properties were built on 99-year leasehold sites sold by the government starting from the late 1960s.

He explained: 'In all practical terms, the useful life of a building is between 40 and 60 years and its usefulness would decrease as the years go by.

'Hence, there's a need to redevelop the building and it makes sense to top up the lease. Otherwise there would be too many old, dilapidated buildings on the island.'

Home owner K H Teo, 57, feels lease top-ups could help his children. He owns a 99-year leasehold condo in Bukit Batok, which is about 10 years old.

He said: 'In this case, I'm sure the property value will go up in the future.

'This is good because it'll affect the younger generation like my children who could benefit from a lease top-up to the estate.'

2005 Land Cost RCR ------ Assuming an all-in land cost of about $240 psf per plot ratio, market watchers estimate that the breakeven cost for a new condo/SoHo project on the site could come in below $500 psf for the UOL and Low Keng Huat tie-up.

[Arcachon]

LOCATION ALLOWABLE DEVELOPMENT SITE AREA MAXIMUM PERMISSIBLE GROSS FLOOR AREA (GFA) SUCCESSFUL TENDERER TENDERED PRICE
($PSM of GFA)
Parcel A at Fernvale Road Residential 16,603.9 m2 49,812 m2 CEL Development Pte. Ltd. and Unique Residence Pte. Ltd. $234,933,000 ($4,716.39)
Parcel B at Fernvale Road 17,413.9 m2 52,242 m2 $252,122,000 ($4,826.04)

http://www.ura.gov.sg/uol/media-room...g/pr14-46.aspx

SINGAPORE: Two plots of land for residential development at Fernvale Road have attracted lukewarm response from developers at the close of tender on Thursday (Aug 7).

The Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA) said Land Parcel A has attracted four bids. The top bid for Parcel A came from CEL Development and Unique Residence at S$234.9 million. It is a joint venture led by Chip Eng Leong Development. The 99-year leasehold site measures about 16,604 square metres.

Meanwhile, Land Parcel B has received three offers, with the top bid also coming from CEL Development and Unique Residence at S$252.1 million. This plot has a site area of about 17,414 square metres.

The top bids for both land parcels work out to a weighted average land price of S$443.38 per square feet per plot ratio (psf ppr) and the break-even cost is estimated to range from S$850 to S$890 psf. The two adjacent plots were put up for sale on June 26 under the batch tender closing system, which is aimed at ensuring more prudent bids from developers.

SLP International Property Consultants Executive Director for Research and Consultancy Nicholas Mak said in a statement: "Altogether, the two sites at Fernvale Road can potentially add a large number of housing units, around 1,100 to 1,200 units, to the supply. This will create a large influx of residential supply in the neighbourhood. Hence, the developments on Parcels A and B may take a longer time to sell all their units."

URA said it will announce its decision on the tender award at a later date.

- CNA/by

https://www.squarefoot.com.sg/trends...sis/land-sales

[Ringo33]

En bloc? What if it can't be enbloc and the property obviously can be lived in after 99 years? (since they are made of concrete, not wood!)
Oh No, you MUST return to the govt for FREE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pity all those owners getting ZERO Dollar for owning a 99 years Leasehold properties for 99 years !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is no such thing as cant en bloc because developers are always hungry for land for development. The only question is if the price is inline with developer expectation and if lease can be top up. But that has got nothing to do with the fallacy of FH condo can be kept FOREVER because buildings are not built to last forever and if the development becomes too old, price and rent will decline and cost of maintenance will rise. It will be like having an old cow that is no longer producing milk.

[Ringo33]

Bro 33. It is the price of FH land that escalate faster than the construction cost of the building in a land scarce country like Singapore. Why do you think FEO built the condo, The Shore (at east coast), on their FH land but sell as leasehold condo. NG family will have the land generation after generation. Got it?

In Singapore the value of land greatly depends on the location and what the government allow you to build above it, and the premium for FH property over LH99 s around 20%. Its not 2 times or 100 times.

The cost of construction doesnt track property prices, it depends on labor and material cost such as granite, steel cement, which is determined by external factors.

FEO is like any developers, their job is to buy land and rebuild. Building LH property on FH land is different from an individual owning a FH apartment and hoping to keep it forever. So please dont confuse the 2. And unless if you are like Peter Lim who own the entire block for his own use, there is no chance of any individual FH apartment owners to keep it forever.