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Thread: Mass-market homes 'face price pressure'

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008 View Post
    It really depends who (ie. which profession) you are attracting to MM apartment. I have seen MM units that are used for Home Office, and in some cases packed with more people than normal as they have budget constraint but want to stay in a place with amenities as compared to a HDB flat. They tend to wear out the unit faster and give more problem. Hence, it is always better to attract those who can afford and better still with only one person staying in the apartment whether it is a MM, 1+1, 2 or even 2+1.
    Affordability is a huge issue in SG, a city state with no hinterland. It is always better and preferable to have "A" and "B" and so on...

    But limited to realistic and practical constraints. Like high cost of private housing. Like reduction of expat package. Like overwhelming density and transport issues in some nodes. Like decentralisation of some industries. Like how technology reduces required living spaces etc...
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMCK View Post
    most of MM i know were used for brothel hahaaa...
    This tells us much about the area of the MMs you frequent.

    Actually even HDBs have been used for this business as well, nothing new.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008 View Post
    Your PR friend is helping to pay the mortgage of someone's dream home.
    Quote Originally Posted by taggy View Post
    hi all,
    i have this PR friend who sold his resale hdb 2 yrs ago, and had been renting a hdb 5rm to stay... waiting for the right price to get a ocr condo.
    the right price havent come, and he cant get another resale hdb as he have oversea properties...
    he is sored about the rental $...

    now i dun noe whether to advise him to wait or buy now.
    if for investment, i will advise him to wait... since, from my prospective, the concenus seems to be property prices will only go down from here...
    but to weigh against continue paying rental $...?
    landlords definitely welcome more of this group of people... and he is not the only person i know, who sold their home away, waiting for price to fall.
    as a friend, i dun like to see him waste $ on rent... but ask him to buy, if price crash, he is going blame me manz

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by taggy View Post
    landlords definitely welcome more of this group of people... and he is not the only person i know, who sold their home away, waiting for price to fall.
    as a friend, i dun like to see him waste $ on rent... but ask him to buy, if price crash, he is going blame me manz
    Advice is the worst vice, a quote I read before.

    If he gains, do you get a treat or some rewards? Worse still if he is the type who will blame you for price dips.

    Best to present evidence to him, and get him to make the decision for himself.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  5. #65
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    With the tightening of foreigners coming into Singapore to work, they don't even need to choose?
    Now only real foreign talents and construction workers can come to work in Singapore! Those earning in between very few! Very bad for people intending to rent out their OCR private condos, let alone OCR MMs!


    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    I have also experienced the range of housing sizes stated.

    Given a choice, I would prefer to live in a 2000sqm mansion with minimum 3 helpers, a butler and a driver.

    But I have to be realistic.

    Your nationality, the time you live in and the choices you have may not totally be in your control. For example, foreigners can't buy HDB and also face restrictions in renting, quota and shorter contracts. If they can't afford full size condo in purchase or rent, what choices still avail?

  6. #66
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    Affordability of HOUSING is NEVER an issue in Singapore for Singapore Citizens & PRs! They can always buy HDB flats which are very cheap! If they don't want to buy, they can RENT!

    Given the above, people live in private properties because they CAN AFFORD, NOT because they have no choice!

    Similarly for foreigners - If they can't afford to rent private properties, they can rent HDB flats!


    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    Affordability is a huge issue in SG, a city state with no hinterland. It is always better and preferable to have "A" and "B" and so on...

    But limited to realistic and practical constraints. Like high cost of private housing. Like reduction of expat package. Like overwhelming density and transport issues in some nodes. Like decentralisation of some industries. Like how technology reduces required living spaces etc...

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    With the tightening of foreigners coming into Singapore to work, they don't even need to choose?
    Now only real foreign talents and construction workers can come to work in Singapore! Those earning in between very few! Very bad for people intending to rent out their OCR private condos, let alone OCR MMs!
    I am sure you are not aware of the profiles of those earning in between.

    We have discussed this before, that at certain price ranges comparable to HDB rates, even locals might rent.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Affordability of HOUSING is NEVER an issue in Singapore for Singapore Citizens & PRs! They can always buy HDB flats which are very cheap! If they don't want to buy, they can RENT!

    Given the above, people live in private properties because they CAN AFFORD, NOT because they have no choice!

    Similarly for foreigners - If they can't afford to rent private properties, they can rent HDB flats!
    I am wondering if you think that there is absolutely no difference between HDB and private condo.

    I think affordability ranges on a gradient. It is obvious that you think affordability is either a yes or no switch.

    We are talking about private OCR condo rent similar in rate (on par) with HDB in absolute and psf quantum. I don't think you have been following the thread.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  9. #69
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    There was a hdb flat in jurong west that was caught for running a brothel biz recently.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    This tells us much about the area of the MMs you frequent.

    Actually even HDBs have been used for this business as well, nothing new.

  10. #70
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    There is obviously big difference between HDB and private condo.

    If people can't afford, they can rent HDB room, or share a HDB with other room-mates, these are absolutely cheap in quantum.
    However, only very desperate private condo owners will want to rent out their private condo by rooms or to a bunch of room-mates that do not form a family! (I WON'T!)

    As to same quantum HDB flat and private condo, obviously they come in different sizes!

    If a person needs a bigger family size unit but has small budget, he can rent HDB.

    If a person need only small space and has big budget, doubt they will rent OCR MM. More likely they will go luxury MM.

    So conclusion: OCR MM unlikely to have much rental market.
    The recent mortgagee sales of MMs say it all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    I am wondering if you think that there is absolutely no difference between HDB and private condo.

    I think affordability ranges on a gradient. It is obvious that you think affordability is either a yes or no switch.

    We are talking about private OCR condo rent similar in rate (on par) with HDB in absolute and psf quantum. I don't think you have been following the thread.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    There is obviously big difference between HDB and private condo.

    If people can't afford, they can rent HDB room, or share a HDB with other room-mates, these are absolutely cheap in quantum.
    However, only very desperate private condo owners will want to rent out their private condo by rooms or to a bunch of room-mates that do not form a family! (I WON'T!)

    As to same quantum HDB flat and private condo, obviously they come in different sizes!

    If a person needs a bigger family size unit but has small budget, he can rent HDB.

    If a person need only small space and has big budget, doubt they will rent OCR MM. More likely they will go luxury MM.

    So conclusion: OCR MM unlikely to have much rental market.
    The recent mortgagee sales of MMs say it all!
    1. Please check the rental prices of OCR condo as well as HDB prices. Actually HDB rental is not cheap at all, 1-BR (MM size) starting rate median is already $1,700 (Queenstown), but I calculated that even at a further firesale 20% discount, OCR MMs are still largely very viable. HDB rates easily overlaps into the rental rates for many OCR condo.

    2. Some groups are missing in your scenario analysis. What happens to the person who need small space and has medium budget say around 2-3K? Its completely omitted? What happens to the scenario where the person needs to stay in a location in the OCR near his/her workplace? Remember he/she is neither a banker nor lawyer and probably has no car and works in one of the alternative business or research areas (for e.g. Changi area, Paya Lebar, JLD, Seletar, Science Park etc). If prices of HDB and OCR condo or MM is comparable in psf and quantum, should he/she still choose HDB?

    3. How about the much greater proportion of mortgagee sales of other property types, especially large, older and central units? Conveniently omitted from your analysis?

    Quoted from STproperty "UOB disclosed only that the rise in bad home loans was mostly the result of mortgages at one luxury condominium, but Maybank Kim Eng analysts Ng Wee Siang and Ng Li Hiang noted in a report that it was "largely from one key project in Sentosa".

    Meanwhile, two units were put up for mortgagee sale at a Colliers auction last Friday. The three-bedders at The Laurels in Cairnhill had opening prices of $4.1 million and $3.6 million but were not sold."
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  12. #72
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    1) I thought Queenstown is RCR and not OCR?
    1-BR HDB flat is bigger than 500 sqft MM!
    So, again, it is SIZE vs BUDGET.

    2) Those foreigners who have budget $2-3K have shrunk by a lot and will CONTINUE TO SHRINK following tightening of foreigners coming into Singapore! Many will continue to be kicked out of Singapore because their EP would not be renewed in coming few years (until Govt reverse their policy)!

    3) Mortgagee sales of large units especially in CCR is understandable, because involves BIG QUANTUM.
    Mortgagee sales of small MM units (especially OCR MM) with SMALL QUANTUM just tells us how desperate these MM owners are! Imagine, so small sum, so small mortgage monthly instalments they also can't afford to pay without rental income cover their instalments??????????


    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    1. Please check the rental prices of OCR condo as well as HDB prices. Actually HDB rental is not cheap at all, 1-BR (MM size) starting rate median is already $1,700 (Queenstown), but I calculated that even at a further firesale 20% discount, OCR MMs are still largely very viable. HDB rates easily overlaps into the rental rates for many OCR condo.

    2. Some groups are missing in your scenario analysis. What happens to the person who need small space and has medium budget say around 2-3K? Its completely omitted? What happens to the scenario where the person needs to stay in a location in the OCR near his/her workplace? Remember he/she is neither a banker nor lawyer and probably has no car and works in one of the alternative business or research areas (for e.g. Changi area, Paya Lebar, JLD, Seletar, Science Park etc). If prices of HDB and OCR condo or MM is comparable in psf and quantum, should he/she still choose HDB?

    3. How about the much greater proportion of mortgagee sales of other property types, especially large, older and central units? Conveniently omitted from your analysis?

    Quoted from STproperty "UOB disclosed only that the rise in bad home loans was mostly the result of mortgages at one luxury condominium, but Maybank Kim Eng analysts Ng Wee Siang and Ng Li Hiang noted in a report that it was "largely from one key project in Sentosa".

    Meanwhile, two units were put up for mortgagee sale at a Colliers auction last Friday. The three-bedders at The Laurels in Cairnhill had opening prices of $4.1 million and $3.6 million but were not sold."

  13. #73
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    1. I already factored in a further 20% discount for RCR to OCR HDB 1BR. Unfortunately from HDB website, Queenstown is the only town to have more than 20 transactions per quarter for us to access the actual rent. This is the ultimate lowest floor rate I believe to pay for privacy in SG in HDB if we do not consider the condo factor. Honestly I don't think it will get so low, but this is the worst case scenario to weather. If you hold a CCR any property, can you take this rate ?

    Also, please check HDB website for the typical 2rm (1BR) sizes.

    http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10321p....m?OpenDocument

    2. We have already stated that the rate of around 2K will appeal to many people including Singaporeans if other factors like amenities are present. The next thing you might ask is why they would rent. I know several who do for all kinds of reasons including moving near to workplace, independence from parents, divorcees etc.

    3. Maybe they hold many units? Maybe they were releasing to get another larger property and avoid ABSD? Maybe personal troubles like gambling and credit management? Need to broaden the thoughts about various probabilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    1) I thought Queenstown is RCR and not OCR?
    1-BR HDB flat is bigger than 500 sqft MM!
    So, again, it is SIZE vs BUDGET.

    2) Those foreigners who have budget $2-3K have shrunk by a lot and will CONTINUE TO SHRINK following tightening of foreigners coming into Singapore! Many will continue to be kicked out of Singapore because their EP would not be renewed in coming few years (until Govt reverse their policy)!

    3) Mortgagee sales of large units especially in CCR is understandable, because involves BIG QUANTUM.
    Mortgagee sales of small MM units (especially OCR MM) with SMALL QUANTUM just tells us how desperate these MM owners are! Imagine, so small sum, so small mortgage monthly instalments they also can't afford to pay without rental income cover their instalments??????????
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  14. #74
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    I actually agree with your point 3 somewhat. It should be a case of poor projection. But with changing real estate climate, many people are caught by the change in rules. Like luxury condo owners, I think their buckets of losses already can fully pay off an MM condo anywhere on the island.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  15. #75
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    I have several rental enquiries for my condo in D1 10 months ago when I was looking for new tenant. I do not rent to them for several reasons: (1) it may be subletted by them; (2) lots of party in my place; and (3) can be more demanding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    1. I already factored in a further 20% discount for RCR to OCR HDB 1BR. Unfortunately from HDB website, Queenstown is the only town to have more than 20 transactions per quarter for us to access the actual rent. This is the ultimate lowest floor rate I believe to pay for privacy in SG in HDB if we do not consider the condo factor. Honestly I don't think it will get so low, but this is the worst case scenario to weather. If you hold a CCR any property, can you take this rate ?

    Also, please check HDB website for the typical 2rm (1BR) sizes.

    http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10321p....m?OpenDocument

    2. We have already stated that the rate of around 2K will appeal to many people including Singaporeans if other factors like amenities are present. The next thing you might ask is why they would rent. I know several who do for all kinds of reasons including moving near to workplace, independence from parents, divorcees etc.

    3. Maybe they hold many units? Maybe they were releasing to get another larger property and avoid ABSD? Maybe personal troubles like gambling and credit management? Need to broaden the thoughts about various probabilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008 View Post
    I have several rental enquiries for my condo in D1 10 months ago when I was looking for new tenant. I do not rent to them for several reasons: (1) it may be subletted by them; (2) lots of party in my place; and (3) can be more demanding.
    For D1, heard that there are Service companies that rent on behalf of tenants from different sources but tenants may change. But contracts are with service companies. Would these be more or less reliable?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008 View Post
    I have several rental enquiries for my condo in D1 10 months ago when I was looking for new tenant. I do not rent to them for several reasons: (1) it may be subletted by them; (2) lots of party in my place; and (3) can be more demanding.
    So what happened in the end?

    My views are as follows:

    1. Larger units more likely to be further sublet, especially if you get tenants with family. I think singles with strong needs for privacy are very unlikely to further sublet MM units. My thoughts only, not verified.

    2. D1 itself is a party spot with lots of activities ongoing late into midnight. It is very likely to attract tenants with strong party and perhaps clubbing needs. Again, my thoughts only.

    3. Whether demanding or not may be a different factor as compared to the amount they are able to pay.

    What are the factors that you look out for when selecting tenants?
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  18. #78
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    Uncle me personally knows quite a handful of expats/locals renting D1 MM. These are the "bachelor/bachelorette" profile and rather savvy individuals.

    Rentals may be on the higher side but cheap food and amenities are plentiful. Not least with so many drinking holes, pubs, night clubs, restaurants etc within 5mins drive/walk.

    I must say this area has the highest mixed of tenants of different nationalities especially conducive for singles, party loving, sociable creatures.

    In fact i can't quite think of any downside to this area and only if i own one to stay and experience for myself

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    Manage to rent to an expat couple on corporate lease in less than two weeks. They love the food and short walk to their office. The tenants have to be professionals. My condos have been rented to usually single and couples without children. I am rather lucky that they have engaged also part-time cleaner on weekend to clean the place. They are mainly non Asians working as bankers, lawyers, financial director, IT manager, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    So what happened in the end?

    My views are as follows:

    1. Larger units more likely to be further sublet, especially if you get tenants with family. I think singles with strong needs for privacy are very unlikely to further sublet MM units. My thoughts only, not verified.

    2. D1 itself is a party spot with lots of activities ongoing late into midnight. It is very likely to attract tenants with strong party and perhaps clubbing needs. Again, my thoughts only.

    3. Whether demanding or not may be a different factor as compared to the amount they are able to pay.

    What are the factors that you look out for when selecting tenants?
    Last edited by DC33_2008; 17-12-14 at 20:35.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by DC33_2008 View Post
    Manage to rent to an expat couple on corporate lease in less than two weeks. They love the food and short walk to their office. The tenants have to be professionals. My condos have been rented to usually single and couples without children. I am rather lucky that they have engaged also part-time cleaner on weekend to clean the place. They are mainly non Asians working as bankers, lawyers, financial director, IT manager, etc.
    Thanks for sharing. Is good fortune to be able to choose but the cost of owning and affordability to shoulder such risks should be out of reach for some of us.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

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