Citibank is unilaterally rasing the spread on its existing Sibor loan customers !

[MortgageGuru]

Thank you teddybear for digging out the details. very very illustrative.



I'm sorry but you are wrong here.
You still do not get it: all banks' T&C have rights that allow them to change all rates, whatever the main doc says.
The diff thus far is, only Citibank actually is doing it now.
This practice alone must be condemned. and the public must be educated that banks T&C indeed allow them to do whatever they want.
what teddybear is championing, and I agree, is to force MAS to impose ABS to stop such unfair terms.

"blame yourself for signing the loan" ? There is no option to customers today. At most you say "blame yourself for trusting Citibank".

You are a mortgage broker. You do represent Citi too, do you ? Imagine one day your client tell you "how come you sold me this fixed rate mortgage 2yrs ago now bank say it can change the rate now", and you say "blame yourself for signing the loan" ?

You did not see the severity of this situation. This is a precedence that should really be prominently flashed out and stopped.

The interest rate(s) on sums payable to the Bank including additional interest may be varied by the
Bank from time to time at its discretion after giving reasonable notice to the Borrower and shall
be payable both before and after judgement. Such interest is to be calculated and compounded
in accordance with the usual practice of the Bank from time to time. The Borrower agrees that
the Bank’s right to compound such interest shall continue notwithstanding that the relationship of
banker and customer may have ceased by a demand or otherwise until the date of payment (both
before and after judgement).

This above clearly stated that they have the rights and power to do so.
Your argument is invalid.
just because no bank exercise their rights to do so, it doesn't mean citi is in fault.
its the same thing everywhere, every big company practise this as well.
simple entrance into fancy entertainment outlet is the same as well, we reserves the rights to deny entry as we deem so.
you go into other people's premises, please don't deem yourself as having the rights of anything.

[MortgageGuru]

@amk,
I can see the serverity of the situation!
I believe every bank in Singapore is watching Citibank's pre-cursor of raising the spread closely. I suppose they are thinking that if Citibank can get away with it, then they could also copy Citibank as well! Basically, almost every bank would like to do it to increase their profits BUT none dare to do it first, until Citibank now..................
That is why when the journalist ask the other banks insiders/officials etc, they are all supporting Citibank by saying they have the right to adjust the spread blah blah blah!!!!!!!!!!!

All Singaporeans who own properties and having existing mortgage loans out there, better watch out! Don't think that it is Citibank and doesn't concern you, soon or later you will get hit as well if Citibank can get away with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who is in charge of Monetary Authority of Singapore? Is it Minister of Finance, who is Tharman now?
May be your friend can write to him see whether he will act or not?

If no government body willing to act, I suppose we consumers have to ACT with our VOTE in coming General Election???????????

If you're thinking that citi is at fault and every other bank can follow likewise and consumer will be at the suffering end, you have a choice, you can don't borrow from anyone.
If you want to borrow from someone, you're at their mercy.
If you're not rich enough to be able to pay for your house and people are lending you money, you don't tell them that they're at fault for increasing the interest.

Same thing, if you rent out your house, if you think you want a higher rental than the current one, you can raise it but if your tenant does not accept it, you lose a tenant.
vice versa, do you think you bother if your tenant lodge a complaint that you want to increase the rental from $2000 to $4000? He have the power, if he wants to rent, he simply pay the rental, if not, seek elsewhere.
it doesn't matter how much is the increment, it's just simple business, buyer willing, seller willing, no people force you to take loan. You yourself wants to take up a loan because you want a house, at the end of day, you yourself can't afford to buy a house then don't buy it.
simple as that.

[MortgageGuru]

In any case, what happens, happened.
Instead of grumbling around and protesting, think of what you can do to improve it.

[teddybear]

Wah, such general overtly one-sided unfair clause that allows the bank the right to do anything single-sided unilaterally, that I think Singapore is the only so-called developed country where the monetary authority allows the bank to insert such clause in their so-called Terms & Conditions (that their clients don't even sign and agreed to) and then enforce them on their clients!
Asking their clients to accept such unfair treatment to the total disregard that the mortgage loan agreement (the actual agreement signed by both parties) clearly states "SIBOR + 0.70%" and then the bank can change the "0.70%" to any figure they like really makes a fool of Singaporeans!

It is time that Singaporeans wish up to such unfair treatment by bullying companies like these banks, and to think that Singapore only has their CPFTA only not too long ago, and it makes a mockery that no government agency even bothers to look into such clearly disregard of CPFTA!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you analogy doesn't even make sense! Don't understand what you mean by "you go into other people's premises, please don't deem yourself as having the rights of anything."???

We are talking about a contract, where almost every bank tried to insert the same aggressively 1-sided clause vaguely, and then point to the clause to say they have the right to do anything anyhow they like (based on their own interpretation)???

The interest rate(s) on sums payable to the Bank including additional interest may be varied by the
Bank from time to time at its discretion after giving reasonable notice to the Borrower and shall
be payable both before and after judgement. Such interest is to be calculated and compounded
in accordance with the usual practice of the Bank from time to time. The Borrower agrees that
the Bank’s right to compound such interest shall continue notwithstanding that the relationship of
banker and customer may have ceased by a demand or otherwise until the date of payment (both
before and after judgement).

This above clearly stated that they have the rights and power to do so.
Your argument is invalid.
just because no bank exercise their rights to do so, it doesn't mean citi is in fault.
its the same thing everywhere, every big company practise this as well.
simple entrance into fancy entertainment outlet is the same as well, we reserves the rights to deny entry as we deem so.
you go into other people's premises, please don't deem yourself as having the rights of anything.

[MortgageGuru]

Wah, such general overtly one-sided unfair clause that allows the bank the right to do anything single-sided unilaterally, that I think Singapore is the only so-called developed country where the monetary authority allows the bank to insert such clause in their so-called Terms & Conditions (that their clients don't even sign and agreed to) and then enforce them on their clients!
Asking their clients to accept such unfair treatment to the total disregard that the mortgage loan agreement (the actual agreement signed by both parties) clearly states "SIBOR + 0.70%" and then the bank can change the "0.70%" to any figure they like really makes a fool of Singaporeans!

It is time that Singaporeans wish up to such unfair treatment by bullying companies like these banks, and to think that Singapore only has their CPFTA only not too long ago, and it makes a mockery that no government agency even bothers to look into such clearly disregard of CPFTA!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you analogy doesn't even make sense! Don't understand what you mean by "you go into other people's premises, please don't deem yourself as having the rights of anything."???

We are talking about a contract, where almost every bank tried to insert the same aggressively 1-sided clause vaguely, and then point to the clause to say they have the right to do anything anyhow they like (based on their own interpretation)???

the clause clearly states that they have the rights to amend interest.
Your argument is just invalid no matter what.
It stated clearly, don't fight a lose fight.

[teddybear]

You raised a very good example about property rental.

Imagine you are the landlord granting renting out the property (like the bank granting the loan), both of you sign a contract, and you only want a contract where you could insert a clause saying that "This tenancy is for 2 fixed years,...,.....the landlord reserves the absolute right to adjust the rental per month from time to time, depending on prevailing market conditions....."????

And what choice you are talking about when all banks are resorting to bullying tactic and put the same clauses in the contract? Fair clauses? CPFTA for what? The banks loan contracts/T&Cs violates the following regulations in CPFTA:

* Taking advantage of a consumer by including in an agreement terms or conditions that are harsh, oppressive or excessively one-sided so as to be unconscionable.

If you're thinking that citi is at fault and every other bank can follow likewise and consumer will be at the suffering end, you have a choice, you can don't borrow from anyone.
If you want to borrow from someone, you're at their mercy.
If you're not rich enough to be able to pay for your house and people are lending you money, you don't tell them that they're at fault for increasing the interest.

Same thing, if you rent out your house, if you think you want a higher rental than the current one, you can raise it but if your tenant does not accept it, you lose a tenant.
vice versa, do you think you bother if your tenant lodge a complaint that you want to increase the rental from $2000 to $4000? He have the power, if he wants to rent, he simply pay the rental, if not, seek elsewhere.
it doesn't matter how much is the increment, it's just simple business, buyer willing, seller willing, no people force you to take loan. You yourself wants to take up a loan because you want a house, at the end of day, you yourself can't afford to buy a house then don't buy it.
simple as that.

[teddybear]

I will rally all Singaporean consumers to be aware of such unfair and oppressive clauses in mortgage loan contract, Citibank UNILATERALLY changing the spread by invoking those unfair oppressive clause, and that they should not VOTE FOR PAP if the MAS / CASE currently under them is NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING TO PROTECT CONSUMERS LIKE US! Simple as that, understand????

And by the way, you as a mortgage broker, is your fudiciary duty towards the banks you represent or towards the clients you introduce to the banks?
Seems like you have no regard to the oppression of your clients by the banks? Is that because it is the banks that pay you commissions and not your clients?

In any case, what happens, happened.
Instead of grumbling around and protesting, think of what you can do to improve it.

[MortgageGuru]

You raised a very good example about property rental.

Imagine you are the landlord granting renting out the property (like the bank granting the loan), both of you sign a contract, and you only want a contract where you could insert a clause saying that "This tenancy is for 2 fixed years,...,.....the landlord reserves the absolute right to adjust the rental per month from time to time, depending on prevailing market conditions....."????

And what choice you are talking about when all banks are resorting to bullying tactic and put the same clauses in the contract? Fair clauses? CPFTA for what? The banks loan contracts/T&Cs violates the following regulations in CPFTA:

* Taking advantage of a consumer by including in an agreement terms or conditions that are harsh, oppressive or excessively one-sided so as to be unconscionable.

Like I've told you, if your tenant is willing to sign a contract like this with you, he have to bite the bullet then.
don't complain when you put pen to paper. What's the point of arguing a lost cause? Your vengeance is so deep, it won't help much.
already told you you can don't take up the loan with them, if anything, just blame yourself for not being rich enough that you have to borrow.
If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Simple as that.

[teddybear]

But actually, it is not because the bank's loan clients know about it, it is because the contract is written in such as way as to MISLEAD their clients, and so VAGUELY so as not raise to their clients attention, until the Citibank issue now then we knew about it! In all my life, I never knew that banks can unilaterally change the interest rate figure already agreed upon, because NO bank has started such precedence before, until Citibank now!

Let me challenge Citibank:
If they want to change the spread UNILATERALLY, then they should not mislead their clients, they should just write:

Effective Interest Rate:
Year 3 and thereafter: SIBOR + spread to be determined by the bank who has the absolute right to adjust from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions.

Don't try to write:
Year 3 and thereafter: SIBOR + 0.70%
to mislead people if they are going to change that "0.70%" to any value they like!

Like I've told you, if your tenant is willing to sign a contract like this with you, he have to bite the bullet then.
don't complain when you put pen to paper. What's the point of arguing a lost cause? Your vengeance is so deep, it won't help much.
already told you you can don't take up the loan with them, if anything, just blame yourself for not being rich enough that you have to borrow.
If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Simple as that.

[teddybear]

Like I told you, I feel that Citibank's mortgage loan agreement (the main agreement signed by both parties) NEVER explicitly state that they have the right to change the spread!

Let's not argue for the sake of arguing, let's refer to the Citibank's loan agreement:

The contract contains the following (cut out unnecessary wordings which has no impact):
"
(d) Contractual period 1 (for 1st year from date of disbursement) - 3 mths Sibor + 0.7%
Contractual period 2 (Thereafter) - 3 mths Sibor + 0.7%

(e) The minimum effective interest rate shall be 0.8% p.a.. Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The bank will not be giving advance notices to the Borrower for any changes in the interest rate.
"

When I read the above, my interpretation of "Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions" is that since Interest rate = 3mth Sibor + 0.7%, Citibank is just referring to the adjustment is for 3mth Sibor, because "0.7%" is a fixed figure. If they really want to change "0.7%", then the contract should write as:

"Contractual period 2 (Thereafter) - 3mths Sibor + spread to be determined solely at the discretion of the bank and to be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions."

See, Citibank is just playing with words now and attempting to mislead, and what I said make more sense than what they tried to force you people to accept,..........
Unless they are saying that they are enforcing based on those small font clauses in their Terms & Conditions document, but heh, those cannot stand up to scrutiny because we never sign the T&C document, not to mention those clauses that are oppressively 1-sided!

Like I've told you, if your tenant is willing to sign a contract like this with you, he have to bite the bullet then.
don't complain when you put pen to paper. What's the point of arguing a lost cause? Your vengeance is so deep, it won't help much.
already told you you can don't take up the loan with them, if anything, just blame yourself for not being rich enough that you have to borrow.
If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Simple as that.

[teddybear]

Note: Below argument borrowed from another website (ha ha ha!)

Like I told you, I feel that Citibank's mortgage loan agreement (the main agreement signed by both parties) NEVER explicitly state that they have the right to change the spread!

Let's not argue for the sake of arguing, let's refer to the Citibank's loan agreement:

The contract contains the following (cut out unnecessary wordings which has no impact):
"
(d) Contractual period 1 (for 1st year from date of disbursement) - 3 mths Sibor + 0.7%
Contractual period 2 (Thereafter) - 3 mths Sibor + 0.7%

(e) The minimum effective interest rate shall be 0.8% p.a.. Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The bank will not be giving advance notices to the Borrower for any changes in the interest rate.
"

When I read the above, my interpretation of "Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions" is that since Interest rate = 3mth Sibor + 0.7%, Citibank is just referring to the adjustment is for 3mth Sibor, because "0.7%" is a fixed figure. If they really want to change "0.7%", then the contract should write as:

"Contractual period 2 (Thereafter) - 3mths Sibor + spread to be determined solely at the discretion of the bank and to be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions."

See, Citibank is just playing with words now and attempting to mislead, and what I said make more sense than what they tried to force you people to accept,..........
Unless they are saying that they are enforcing based on those small font clauses in their Terms & Conditions document, but heh, those cannot stand up to scrutiny because we never sign the T&C document, not to mention those clauses that are oppressively 1-sided!

[BigBoy]

http://singaporelegaladvice.com/unfa...-in-singapore/

Contractual liability – Section 3 of UCTA

In the case of a consumer dealing with a business entity, if the transaction is entered into using the latter’s standard form (for instance, when you sign up with a telco on their standard contract), section 3 applies. This section disallows the business from using its standard contractual terms to

Exclude its own liability for breaches of terms;
Excluding or limiting its own liability for breaches of terms, and
Relying on a term to render a different kind of service from that which was reasonably expected of him, or not service at all,
unless the standard contractual term is reasonable. Once again, reasonableness rears its amorphous head!

Is Citibank term/action "reasonably"? I believe that is also implicitly in the reply from MAS on this issue.
Citibank did not explain, just says the term in the contract. Is this term "ünfair"

[newbie11]

Hey teddy, did mas or case replied to you? I know many who might be keen to band together for a louder noise

[MortgageGuru]

If you really think you have a case here, why not you serve a civil suit against citibank?
since you deem yourself to have a super strong case, I hope you does win the lawsuit against them and get a compensation payout.
Every citi client will be so proud of you.
You have a good strong call here, get more people down to hong lim park tomorrow and prove your case.

[hopeful]

I will rally all Singaporean consumers to be aware of such unfair and oppressive clauses in mortgage loan contract, Citibank UNILATERALLY changing the spread by invoking those unfair oppressive clause, and that they should not VOTE FOR PAP if the MAS / CASE currently under them is NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING TO PROTECT CONSUMERS LIKE US! Simple as that, understand????
.....

teddy, whats your skin in the game? u mentioned that you dont have dealings with citibank anymore.
perhaps are you afraid that citibank action will spread to other banks? you buy and hold ccr for so long, your ccr properties would be paid up already. what are you so afraid of?

let me remind you: you are so concerned about pollution in the west, yet when asked to take action, you say you didnt stay in the west. and you are not concerned that pollution in the west spreading to other parts in singapore (because human lungs in the west will act as filter?) or there is an invisible barrier that stops pollution in the west from spreading to clementi and so forth.

if banks all raise spreads, then your wish will come true isnt it: the weakholders in OCR cannot service loan. OCR crash ~40%.
additionally weakholders in CCR will have firesale, which you can scoop up. so why you make so much noise?
as an excuse for anti-PAP? but what about your wish of OCR crashing?

so whats your motivation?

as for your grandstanding: "I will rally all Singaporean consumers to be aware of such unfair and oppressive clauses[/COLOR][/B] in mortgage loan contract" . Can you use a few key words so I will google it everyday and look into top 10 pages worth of search results.

[amk]

This above clearly stated that they have the rights and power to do so.
Your argument is invalid.
just because no bank exercise their rights to do so, it doesn't mean citi is in fault.

I find your position on this appalling. All the while we already said/knew banks have T&C that they can do whatever they want. You only knew that now ? It was never about "valid" or "legal".
It is about ethics, and fair practice. You make it sound like it is a matter of course. (To take a cynical tone aka hopeful: to be unethical is business, to be ethical is a favor. well maybe it is becoming a fact, but that cannot be your position.)
And please stop saying "you dun have to sign the doc". all docs have such terms, customer has no choice.

Look I know your business is to sell mortgage. However I know some mortgage brokers who are more sincere and honest, who openly admit that banks indeed can change all rates quoted, it's not exactly fair, but it is what it is in the market. Do you tell your customers that ? Do you tell them the Fixed Rate quoted by banks can be changed ? Do you tell them the FHR composition can be changed any time, to be, among others, re-benchmarked to something else ?

From the very beginning of this thread, you 1st disbelieved Citi is changing the spread. Now with the facts confirmed, you think this is business as usual. My other brokers confirmed with me the case immediately when I asked them. And all of them shared my friend's outrage and my sympathy.

Hey teddy, did mas or case replied to you? I know many who might be keen to band together for a louder noise

one nice broker as example.


... and hopeful you are indeed one funny guy. yes sure, everything happens, happens for a reason Btw my friend is not getting anywhere with MAS. But Citi said it is "prepared to waive penalty charges if you wish to refinance with other banks".

[hopeful]

.....
... and hopeful you are indeed one funny guy. yes sure, everything happens, happens for a reason Btw my friend is not getting anywhere with MAS. But Citi said it is "prepared to waive penalty charges if you wish to refinance with other banks".

That was already mentioned in the news
"Mr Peng said all the terms and conditions have been carefully outlined and that interest-rate definitions are clearly stated.
He encouraged affected customers to contact the bank, adding that any decision they make regarding their loans will not be bound by any penalty or fees."

My 2cents:

There is a clause in the Citibank Main Contract.
"The Citibank Home Saver Terms and Conditions annexed hereto shall apply. In the event of any inconsistency between the terms herein and that set out in the Citibank Home Saver Terms and Conditions, the terms herein shall prevail."

What does that mean? it means The Main Contract will override the Annex if there is any inconsistency.
So Citibank cannot be relying on the catch-all clause in the T&C (the Annex) to change the spread because the Main Contract already specify the spread. Catch-all clause also no use if inconsistent with Main Contract.
Remember this: Main Contract will override the Annex if there is any inconsistency.

To change the spread, Citibank need to rely on the Main Contract, and not on the Annex.
The clause citibank are using is in 1(e) The minimum Effective Interest Rate shall be 0.80% pa. Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The Bank will not be giving advance notice to the Borrower for any changes in the interest rates.

Now there are 2 terms: "Interest rate" and "Effective Interest Rate" used in Clause 1(e)
Definition of "Effective Interest Rate" is 1 month SIBOR rate for the relevant Interest Period plus 0.65%

What then is the definition of interest rates?
The nearest definition comes to:
"The actual monthly payment shall be computed based on the Effective Interest Rate set out below and may vary depending on amongst other factors the prevailing interest rate, outstanding principal and remaining tenor of the Credit Facilities. The interest rate quoted to you is benchmarked against the Singapore Interbank Offered Rate ("SIBOR") and is accordingly subject to any fluctuations in SIBOR rate. Please note that the Bank is not required to give advance notice of the SIBOR rate which are applicable to the Term Loan."

Do you see how the the last sentences in Clause 1(e) and the above paragraph are similar.
Clause 1(e): The Bank will not be giving advance notice to the Borrower for any changes in the interest rates.
Above paragraph: Please note that the Bank is not required to give advance notice of the SIBOR rate which are applicable to the Term Loan.

Now do we have the definition of what is "Interest rate" ?
The case to be made is that "interest rate" quoted in Clause 1(e) is that it is the 1 month SIBOR rate and NOT the spread.
so clause 1(e) can read as
1(e) The minimum Effective Interest Rate shall be 0.80% pa. Interest rates/(1month SIBOR rate) are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The Bank will not be giving advance notice to the Borrower for any changes in the interest rates/(1month SIBOR rate).

If you demolish 1(e), there is less wriggle room for citibank to change spread.
Come to think of it, which is why perhaps they are relying on word games, like:
"Mr Peng Chun Hsien, Citibank Singapore's head of secured finance solutions, also stressed that the "current revision is only applicable to clients outside the lock-in period".
"Mr Peng told The Straits Times: "The word 'throughout' is a term the industry uses, and refers to the tenure and period that we are covering."
"Finance industry experts say reviewing spreads is standard bank practice, but in practice, changing the spread during the loan period is uncommon."

to AMK and the rest affected,
1) please check with your friend's contract are similar to mine, i also have citibank letter of offer
2) please ask your friend to ask the banker to point out which clause they are using to change spread. This is very important. Insist on finding out which clause. Take no shit for an answer.
3) remember, in any consistency, Main Contract overrides Annex (T&C) if there is such a clause in your friend's contract.

thats all for my 2cents

[amk]

I dun have the contract. but from yours:

The interest rate quoted to you is benchmarked against the Singapore Interbank Offered Rate ("SIBOR") and is accordingly subject to any fluctuations in SIBOR rate.

it does not say this rate = sibor+spread. it merely says it changes with SIBOR. Citi is still playing with words. it comes to "interpretation" of common words.

[hopeful]

again, there are 2 terms used "Effective interest rates" and "interest rates" used in contract.
"effective interest rates" =/= "interest rates"

from the para
"The actual monthly payment shall be computed based on the Effective Interest Rate set out below and may vary depending on amongst other factors the prevailing interest rate, outstanding principal and remaining tenor of the Credit Facilities. The interest rate quoted to you is benchmarked against the Singapore Interbank Offered Rate ("SIBOR") and is accordingly subject to any fluctuations in SIBOR rate. Please note that the Bank is not required to give advance notice of the SIBOR rate which are applicable to the Term Loan."

clause 1(d) already have formula for Effective Interest Rate
Effective Interest Rate = 1 month SIBOR rate for the relevant Interest Period plus 0.65%.

if they wanted to use clause 1(e) as basis for change:
it should have read as
1(e) The minimum Effective Interest Rate shall be 0.80% pa. Effective Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The Bank will not be giving advance notice to the Borrower for any changes in the Effective Interest Rates.

If the bank has used the above terms instead, then i think citibank has all the rights in the world. unfortunately it omits the word Effective.
What mortgagees are paying is the Effective Interest Rate, and not the Interest Rate. Dont mixed up the 2 terms.
and formulation of "effective interest rate" is in clause 1(d) (mentioned above)



once again, like a broken tape recorder, those affected please ask the bank(er) to point out which clause they invoke to change the spread.

[MortgageGuru]

I find your position on this appalling. All the while we already said/knew banks have T&C that they can do whatever they want. You only knew that now ? It was never about "valid" or "legal".
It is about ethics, and fair practice. You make it sound like it is a matter of course. (To take a cynical tone aka hopeful: to be unethical is business, to be ethical is a favor. well maybe it is becoming a fact, but that cannot be your position.)
And please stop saying "you dun have to sign the doc". all docs have such terms, customer has no choice.

Look I know your business is to sell mortgage. However I know some mortgage brokers who are more sincere and honest, who openly admit that banks indeed can change all rates quoted, it's not exactly fair, but it is what it is in the market. Do you tell your customers that ? Do you tell them the Fixed Rate quoted by banks can be changed ? Do you tell them the FHR composition can be changed any time, to be, among others, re-benchmarked to something else ?

From the very beginning of this thread, you 1st disbelieved Citi is changing the spread. Now with the facts confirmed, you think this is business as usual. My other brokers confirmed with me the case immediately when I asked them. And all of them shared my friend's outrage and my sympathy.


one nice broker as example.


... and hopeful you are indeed one funny guy. yes sure, everything happens, happens for a reason Btw my friend is not getting anywhere with MAS. But Citi said it is "prepared to waive penalty charges if you wish to refinance with other banks".

I understand the anger among citi borrowers, instead of making the best out of it, why sulk and make a big hooha when you know nothings gonna change as all is done within their legal framework.
I admit, I'm shocked to hear that from citi at the start, eventually reality tells me to move on and solve the issue instead of start the blaming game.
I totally understand what you all feel as citi is the first to ever use this trump card thus far, it may seems unethical, but legally they still follow the law.

nothing in this world a sure thing as death.
When you borrow from someone, always expect yourself to be at their mercy.

[amk]

"nothing in this world is sure, except death and TAX "

hopeful u have interesting point. I sms'ed my friend and asked him to read what you posted.

[hopeful]

I understand the anger among citi borrowers, instead of making the best out of it, .....
.....

care to explain "making the best out of it" ?
i dont supposed having high tea at shangrila and laughing it off means making the best out of it?

[MortgageGuru]

care to explain "making the best out of it" ?
i dont supposed having high tea at shangrila and laughing it off means making the best out of it?

Nope. I believe everyone here are old enough to know when problem comes up, we solve it instead of blaming. Creating a unrest here makes you all no difference from communist in the early days.

[teddybear]

Strange that you mention "creating a unrest ... makes ... no difference from communist in the early days" out of no where here...

You are saying "only communists create unrest in the early days"?
Wow! That is over generalization isn't it?

And we sure know where the problems come from - No consumer protection and overtly aggressive and oppressively 1-sided terms dictated by the banks collectively!
And MAS and CASE who are supposed to protect consumers are not doing anything!

Nope. I believe everyone here are old enough to know when problem comes up, we solve it instead of blaming. Creating a unrest here makes you all no difference from communist in the early days.

[MortgageGuru]

Strange that you mention "creating a unrest ... makes ... no difference from communist in the early days" out of no where here...

You are saying "only communists create unrest in the early days"?
Wow! That is over generalization isn't it?

And we sure know where the problems come from - No consumer protection and overtly aggressive and oppressively 1-sided terms dictated by the banks collectively!
And MAS and CASE who are supposed to protect consumers are not doing anything!

Your argument is still invalid eventually.
If you can't afford a house, don't buy it then.
In chinese saying... 打肿脸皮充胖子

[gavan]

For sake of helpless citibank customer like me...

I would appreciated if anyone can help by joining my
facebook group "Singapore home grouploan"
https://www.facebook.com/groups/668115326654609/

And click share for more awareness.
Thank u very veriii much

[teddybear]

Again, you show that you are beating around the bush, not something an honorable person will do......... Please point out which of my argument "is still invalid eventually".......

And you are are making assumption and insinuating me can't afford a house with your "if you can't afford a house...", something that only a scoundrel will do...... As far as I jolly know, I am sure I am much better to do than you do...............

Also, you have yet to clarify why the chart of SGD SIBOR I shown shows that highest SIBOR over past 10 years is only about 3.5% vs the 7.75% that you told us. Please clarify whether you have misled us?

Your argument is still invalid eventually.
If you can't afford a house, don't buy it then.
In chinese saying... 打肿脸皮充胖子

Strange that you mention "creating a unrest ... makes ... no difference from communist in the early days" out of no where here...

You are saying "only communists create unrest in the early days"?
Wow! That is over generalization isn't it?

And we sure know where the problems come from - No consumer protection and overtly aggressive and oppressively 1-sided terms dictated by the banks collectively!
And MAS and CASE who are supposed to protect consumers are not doing anything!

[MortgageGuru]

Again, you show that you are beating around the bush, not something an honorable person will do......... Please point out which of my argument "is still invalid eventually".......

And you are are making assumption and insinuating me can't afford a house with your "if you can't afford a house...", something that only a scoundrel will do...... As far as I jolly know, I am sure I am much better to do than you do...............

Also, you have yet to clarify why the chart of SGD SIBOR I shown shows that highest SIBOR over past 10 years is only about 3.5% vs the 7.75% that you told us. Please clarify whether you have misled us?

What's with me beating around the bush?
Your opinion of me does not define who I am.
If you're much better to do than I am, I feel happy for you.
If you're much better to do than I am, I think you should not have any issue right now against citi because I have none.
If you want, we can always check it out with ABS. You're a adult, but behaving like a child crying over spoilt milk.
Solve the issue, not creating unrest.
If you so gung-ho, please go create banner and I'll pay for the banner upon receipt as long as you walk around in town and rally all the citi client to march along Istana with it, I'll cover all your expense incurred.
If not, just go to the right platform and express your anger as you're only doing nothing but stirring troubles.

[sabian]

Vested interests.

[teddybear]

You still refuse to admit that you are not beating around the bush?
Until now, you have REFUSED to answer 3 queries here (in response to what you posted previously):

1) You have yet to clarify why the chart of SGD SIBOR I shown shows that highest SIBOR over past 10 years is only about 3.5% vs the 7.75% that you told us. Please clarify whether you have misled and intentionally want to us?

2) Please point out which of my argument "is still invalid eventually".......

3) Is your fudiciary duty as a mortgage broker towards your clients or towards the banks (who pay you commissions)?

Why being much better than you means should not have any issue with Citibank?
The way I see it is that Citibank is playing with words, and is oppressively trying to mislead their clients into believing they have the right to raise the spread unilaterally. There is clear violation of CPFTA, yet CASE and MAS are both not doing anything!

And most of us here know that you are a mortgage broker, why would you have issue with Citibank who pay you commissions?
Again, I ask you this question that you refused to answer me:
Is your fudiciary duty as a mortgage broker towards your clients or towards the banks (who pay you commissions)?

I can clearly see that you have conflict of interest, or vested interests, to be biased and sides with Citibank here............

Why you have strong objection to me for raising unfairness by Citibank?
Why should you bothered which platform I go to or how I do it?
I don't think I need to do as you prescribed, not forgetting that you have conflicts of interests and vested interests to side with Citibank here (since they pay you commissions, not your clients and potential clients that you are trying to hook up here)....................

What's with me beating around the bush?
Your opinion of me does not define who I am.
If you're much better to do than I am, I feel happy for you.
If you're much better to do than I am, I think you should not have any issue right now against citi because I have none.
If you want, we can always check it out with ABS. You're a adult, but behaving like a child crying over spoilt milk.
Solve the issue, not creating unrest.
If you so gung-ho, please go create banner and I'll pay for the banner upon receipt as long as you walk around in town and rally all the citi client to march along Istana with it, I'll cover all your expense incurred.
If not, just go to the right platform and express your anger as you're only doing nothing but stirring troubles.