What happens if one day the Government runs out of sites?

[Kelonguni]

Just an academic question. Supposing one day we are built to the max and all sites are occupied, only left patches of forests for conservation, some other essential purposes that cannot be developed anymore.

How would the Govt sell land? Or would land sales stop?

Start reclaiming land again?

Buy back or enbloc from existing flats or apartments to sell? Quite a number of old flats are enbloc recently.

[Simi]

Just an academic question. Supposing one day we are built to the max and all sites are occupied, only left patches of forests for conservation, some other essential purposes that cannot be developed anymore.

How would the Govt sell land? Or would land sales stop?

Start reclaiming land again?

Buy back or enbloc from existing flats or apartments to sell? Quite a number of old flats are enbloc recently.

Good question

think the only way is to buy back or enbloc existing flats which will bag another question

to buy back leasehold 99years or freehold

[MrTan]

Jus a few brainstormers...

1) Is population growth the perpetual public policy?

2) Scraping into the sky? Going underground? Building across/over infrastructure - roads/tracks?

3) Far fetched but... Merger/Acquisition? Hostile takeover? Aggressive expansion?

[Arcachon]

Singapore land can only grow so much.

The house in the future will be for sleeping only.

HDB can only become smaller in size.

[teddybear]

Why need to buy back? So many 99years leasehold properties, Govt just need to wait for their 99years lease to expire and take back FREE!

Just an academic question. Supposing one day we are built to the max and all sites are occupied, only left patches of forests for conservation, some other essential purposes that cannot be developed anymore.

How would the Govt sell land? Or would land sales stop?

Start reclaiming land again?

Buy back or enbloc from existing flats or apartments to sell? Quite a number of old flats are enbloc recently.

[Kelonguni]

Why need to buy back? So many 99years leasehold properties, Govt just need to wait for their 99years lease to expire and take back FREE!

Most buildings have lots of issues from 30 years onwards. Very well known.

Anyway at the rate we are building infrastructure and developments it is unlikely to have all buildings reach 99 years to take back. Developers also would offer to buy way before that.

I was thinking the Govt might think of all reasons like road building etc to take back all the Freehold land at leasehold prices. It had all been done before.

Petty issues aside, I don't think the Govt will specifically target any type. The concern is now we are considering under MRT and subterranean for development. Might really be running out of land in say 30 or 50 years!

[Warren49]

The entire East Coast areas can be reclaimed. The Pasir Panjang belt also offers gd potential to develop high rise. We can also consolidate the golf courses and army camps. When transport links with JB/KL are fully developed, many will be staying at Johor/KL and commuting to SG to work.

SG will eventually run out of land, but most probably only in 50 years time, and I will be too old to care then.

[Kelonguni]

The entire East Coast areas can be reclaimed. The Pasir Panjang belt also offers gd potential to develop high rise. We can also consolidate the golf courses and army camps. When transport links with JB/KL are fully developed, many will be staying at Johor/KL and commuting to SG to work.

SG will eventually run out of land, but most probably only in 50 years time, and I will be too old to care then.

The majority of golf land from country clubs are being taken back. I am not too sure about the foundation of the Pasir Panjang belt for high rise.

Schools are being built strata now as well. There are some who say we are looking at the possibility of HDBs where there might be underground levels. I think it has already happened to many research institutes or commercial buildings, B4 to B6 levels.

Can we buy over some islands from Indonesia and reclaim all the way over?

[indomie]

The majority of golf land from country clubs are being taken back. I am not too sure about the foundation of the Pasir Panjang belt for high rise.

Schools are being built strata now as well. There are some who say we are looking at the possibility of HDBs where there might be underground levels. I think it has already happened to many research institutes or commercial buildings, B4 to B6 levels.

Can we buy over some islands from Indonesia and reclaim all the way over?

No....u cannot buy island from Indonesia and reclaim it all the way over

[teddybear]

There are many buildings over 100 years in overseas.............
It is not because of "issues" but because Singapore makes it easy to enbloc and when enbloc makes more money...........
When there is no more money to be made from enbloc, those 99years leasehold property owners will just have to hold till their lease expire..............

Most buildings have lots of issues from 30 years onwards. Very well known.

Anyway at the rate we are building infrastructure and developments it is unlikely to have all buildings reach 99 years to take back. Developers also would offer to buy way before that.

I was thinking the Govt might think of all reasons like road building etc to take back all the Freehold land at leasehold prices. It had all been done before.

Petty issues aside, I don't think the Govt will specifically target any type. The concern is now we are considering under MRT and subterranean for development. Might really be running out of land in say 30 or 50 years!

[Kelonguni]

There are many buildings over 100 years in overseas.............
It is not because of "issues" but because Singapore makes it easy to enbloc and when enbloc makes more money...........
When there is no more money to be made from enbloc, those 99years leasehold property owners will just have to hold till their lease expire..............

You already rightly pointed out overseas, not hot and humid climate in SG.

Why would there be no money to be made from enbloc? Unless war or system collapse... If that happens, no land will be worth anything. As it is now, Freehold land is still preferred for enbloc, unless it is too pricey.

Hold till LH expires means 95 years of solid rent for investment properties, not sure if you are aware.

[proud owner]

The majority of golf land from country clubs are being taken back. I am not too sure about the foundation of the Pasir Panjang belt for high rise.

Schools are being built strata now as well. There are some who say we are looking at the possibility of HDBs where there might be underground levels. I think it has already happened to many research institutes or commercial buildings, B4 to B6 levels.

Can we buy over some islands from Indonesia and reclaim all the way over?

the entire Pasir panjang is Enbloc-able.

the shore line used to be south of the road itself. Now it has gone all the way out, with a highway built as well. Foundation i believe is strong enough for high rise.

[proud owner]

You already rightly pointed out overseas, not hot and humid climate in SG.

Why would there be no money to be made from enbloc? Unless war or system collapse... If that happens, no land will be worth anything. As it is now, Freehold land is still preferred for enbloc, unless it is too pricey.

Hold till LH expires means 95 years of solid rent for investment properties, not sure if you are aware.

FH land is definitely getting lesser .... made less by Far east... enblocing FH and selling as 103 years .... in another few generations, Far east will own majority of singapore

[Kelonguni]

FH land is definitely getting lesser .... made less by Far east... enblocing FH and selling as 103 years .... in another few generations, Far east will own majority of singapore

I hope one day Govt will outlaw this kind of land hoarding.

Needs extra strong political will to ban FH properties (mine gone too) and convert all to LH.

[teddybear]

Are you talking about an autocratic / dictatorship country? Otherwise how to do that? Definitely not a democratic country like Singapore!

I hope one day Govt will outlaw this kind of land hoarding.

Needs extra strong political will to ban FH properties (mine gone too) and convert all to LH.

[Kelonguni]

Are you talking about an autocratic / dictatorship country? Otherwise how to do that? Definitely not a democratic country like Singapore!

They definitely did to our squatter FH land before. When land is really scarce, they can do it again.

[teddybear]

So you are saying that somebody had acted like a dictator in Singapore before to forcibly robbed other people of their FH land?????

They definitely did to our squatter FH land before. When land is really scarce, they can do it again.

[Kelonguni]

So you are saying that somebody had acted like a dictator in Singapore before to forcibly robbed other people of their FH land?????

It was the will of the people to do so. Squatter lands are not that productive and cannot help us meet the long term population goals.

[teddybear]

What squatter lands? Squatter don't own the land anyway, so don't think there is such thing!
If a person owns the freehold land, you mean the govt can forcibility take over? If so, if this is not DICTATOR's action then what is it?!

It was the will of the people to do so. Squatter lands are not that productive and cannot help us meet the long term population goals.

[Kelonguni]

What squatter lands? Squatter don't own the land anyway, so don't think there is such thing!
If a person owns the freehold land, you mean the govt can forcibility take over? If so, if this is not DICTATOR's action then what is it?!

I am deeply surprised that someone as knowledgeable as you have no idea about squatter lands and the law / rights surrounding it. Especially since you appear to be such an advocator of rights.

Some reference:

http://www.globalurban.org/GUDMag07Vol3Iss1/Yuen.htm

[pmet]

I've a feeling that the govt would soon announce that SER isn't automatically an entitlement and expired lease will be taken back. It's not sustainable to continue the SER path.

Soon, there will be so many expiring lease that developers will have a huge pool to choose.

This is when 99yr lease property (especially HDB flats) will drop like a rock. Those Bishan 1mil HDB are worth 600k at most in current market.

[Kelonguni]

Not many of such flats around where lease is expiring.

SIT built till 1960 when HDB took over.

Most flats built by HDB towards 1980s 1990s period. Some the interblock space and unit sizes are huge. Gotta wait 60 years till the lease expires? We would have run out of space way before that.

"There are currently 138 SIT blocks left standing in Singapore.

They range from two to seven storeys, and are located in Bukit Merah, Queenstown, Geylang and Kallang Whampoa."

I've a feeling that the govt would soon announce that SER isn't automatically an entitlement and expired lease will be taken back. It's not sustainable to continue the SER path.

Soon, there will be so many expiring lease that developers will have a huge pool to choose.

This is when 99yr lease property (especially HDB flats) will drop like a rock. Those Bishan 1mil HDB are worth 600k at most in current market.

[teddybear]

You are contradicting yourself! (Please read the sequence of responses from bottom upwards)................

First you say the govt remove the squatters from their FH land, and "When land is really scarce, they can do it again."

In response to proud owner saying Far East hoarding FH land,
you said "I hope one day Govt will outlaw this kind of land hoarding.
Needs extra strong political will to ban FH properties (mine gone too) and convert all to LH."

But, the squatters, as the name implies, do not own the land in the first place! Those squatters are living on state's land illegally!!!!!!!
Now 50 years later in Singapore, there are NO MORE squatters!
So, how is the government going "do it again" to get more land??????

How is government going to outlaw the so-called "land hoarding" by Far East??????
Forcibly take from current land owners is what you are advocating the government to do? If so, you are asking the government to act like dictator/communists?

I am deeply surprised that someone as knowledgeable as you have no idea about squatter lands and the law / rights surrounding it. Especially since you appear to be such an advocator of rights.

Some reference:

http://www.globalurban.org/GUDMag07Vol3Iss1/Yuen.htm

What squatter lands? Squatter don't own the land anyway, so don't think there is such thing!
If a person owns the freehold land, you mean the govt can forcibility take over? If so, if this is not DICTATOR's action then what is it?!

They definitely did to our squatter FH land before. When land is really scarce, they can do it again.

I hope one day Govt will outlaw this kind of land hoarding.

Needs extra strong political will to ban FH properties (mine gone too) and convert all to LH.

FH land is definitely getting lesser .... made less by Far east... enblocing FH and selling as 103 years .... in another few generations, Far east will own majority of singapore

[Kelonguni]

Relax friend. You and I both know how unlikely that is going to be. You know I am kidding when I also have FH property.

But indirect methods still avail to slowly buy everything over, even from Far East.

Relax, uptight about everything very easy to get heart attack.

You are contradicting yourself! (Please read the sequence of responses from bottom upwards)................

First you say the govt remove the squatters from their FH land, and "When land is really scarce, they can do it again."

In response to proud owner saying Far East hoarding FH land,
you said "I hope one day Govt will outlaw this kind of land hoarding.
Needs extra strong political will to ban FH properties (mine gone too) and convert all to LH."

But, the squatters, as the name implies, do not own the land in the first place! Those squatters are living on state's land illegally!!!!!!!
Now 50 years later in Singapore, there are NO MORE squatters!
So, how is the government going "do it again" to get more land??????

How is government going to outlaw the so-called "land hoarding" by Far East??????
Forcibly take from current land owners is what you are advocating the government to do? If so, you are asking the government to act like dictator/communists?

[Kelonguni]

To be frank, nobody owns land to begin with. We have just pprioritised humans through legalisation and formalisation.

[teddybear]

Nobody owns land to begin with?
You are discrediting the legal ownership right of those land owners?
Looks like you have no respect for all kinds of ownership? If you don't respect land ownership, you probably don't respect other intellectual property right ownership?
Are you a communist who believe that every inch of land must belong to the STATE?

As far as I know, only communist and those who has communism-thinking will think and believe and speak as though the STATE has the right to forcibly acquire Freehold land from their owners and they have no respect for private individual and corporation ownership rights!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To be frank, nobody owns land to begin with. We have just pprioritised humans through legalisation and formalisation.

[mummy]

Actually, that is why Iskandar and HSR and RTS is complementary if our policy continues to be population growth as we would then have more space to house foreigners....but it is not really sustainable in the long run, so we better not depend on population growth indefinitely and come up with a better strategy...

[Kelonguni]

Do aborigines own land?

I fully respect legalisation. If not why buy?

Nobody owns land to begin with?
You are discrediting the legal ownership right of those land owners?
Looks like you have no respect for all kinds of ownership? If you don't respect land ownership, you probably don't respect other intellectual property right ownership?
Are you a communist who believe that every inch of land must belong to the STATE?

As far as I know, only communist and those who has communism-thinking will think and believe and speak as though the STATE has the right to forcibly acquire Freehold land from their owners and they have no respect for private individual and corporation ownership rights!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pmet]

Not many of such flats around where lease is expiring.

SIT built till 1960 when HDB took over.

Most flats built by HDB towards 1980s 1990s period. Some the interblock space and unit sizes are huge. Gotta wait 60 years till the lease expires? We would have run out of space way before that.

"There are currently 138 SIT blocks left standing in Singapore.

They range from two to seven storeys, and are located in Bukit Merah, Queenstown, Geylang and Kallang Whampoa."

If you read my post, I didn't say HDBs will be the first to be repossessed. All it takes is the govt to acknowledge they can no longer automatically SER old HDB flats and existing flats with 50yrs lease would drop like a rock. This would in turn affect leasehold private properties. All we know now is that the landed properties in Geylang Lorong 3 have less than 10yrs on their lease and they cost only 130k. If you do the math, the fall in price isn't linear. The depreciation is higher nearing to the end of lease. I would like to think that "depreciation" has not been used on properties but soon it will!

[Kelonguni]

If you read my post, I didn't say HDBs will be the first to be repossessed. All it takes is the govt to acknowledge they can no longer automatically SER old HDB flats and existing flats with 50yrs lease would drop like a rock. This would in turn affect leasehold private properties. All we know now is that the landed properties in Geylang Lorong 3 have less than 10yrs on their lease and they cost only 130k. If you do the math, the fall in price isn't linear. The depreciation is higher nearing to the end of lease. I would like to think that "depreciation" has not been used on properties but soon it will!

Hi, I did read. But if Govt do not automatically SER old flats, the alternative would be to wait till the lease expires, and in the meantime deal with land shortage. Places that could be made more compact would be underutilised for a longer period.

Geylang landed mentioned began with 60 years lease for reference. Very few sites are like that anymore.

Depreciation is real, and definitely greater for LH nearing end of term. But appreciation for new properties regardless of lease is also real. The moderator is how steep the depreciation and how much "insurance" to pay to minimise the depreciation.