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Thread: UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site

  1. #41
    Queen

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    Default Re: UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    That being said, I did learn something about sea and river / lake sand differences.

    And that there are still illegal paths to extract sand despite the ban.

    https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/what-is-the-reason-for-not-using-sea-and-desert-sand-for-construction/article7489192.ece

    Nonetheless, it does not detract from the case of rising costs.
    Good, so you know the difference between sea and river sand now...

    So will sea sand still cause huge impact on property prices?

  2. #42
    Ultimate Underdog

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    Default Re: UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site

    I am always open-minded. This is from your article.

    "Two traders importing sand to Singapore, who both asked not to be named, said the commodity is becoming scarcer and driving Singapore to source sand from as far as India, which would push up costs. Shipping is the biggest single cost in acquiring sand.

    The traders added Singapore has been stockpiling sand in recent years which could provide a buffer against any immediate bottleneck in supplies."


    "Singapore imported 59 million tonnes of sand from Malaysia in 2018, at a cost of US$347 million, according to United Nations Comtrade data, which is based on information provided by individual countries' customs offices.

    That accounted for 97 per cent of Singapore's total sand imports in the year by volume, and 95 per cent of Malaysia's global sand sales.

    The data does not distinguish between types of sand.

    Mr Mahathir, who put in place a similar sea sand ban when he was prime minister in the 1990s, has also tightened regulations on river and estuary sand exports, the government sources added."

    Apparently, the ban is not just on sea sand.


    Quote Originally Posted by annetyu View Post
    Good, so you know the difference between sea and river sand now...

    So will sea sand still cause huge impact on property prices?
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  3. #43
    Ultimate Underdog

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    Default Re: UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site

    See in CAPS below. Remember coincidentally also that property prices shot up from 2008 onwards with a short dip in 2009 due to financial crisis.

    "When Indonesia banned exports to Singapore in 2007, citing environmental concerns, it caused a "sand crisis" in the city-state that saw BUILDING ACTIVITY almost come to a halt. Singapore has since bolstered its stockpiles. "

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    I am always open-minded. This is from your article.

    "Two traders importing sand to Singapore, who both asked not to be named, said the commodity is becoming scarcer and driving Singapore to source sand from as far as India, which would push up costs. Shipping is the biggest single cost in acquiring sand.

    The traders added Singapore has been stockpiling sand in recent years which could provide a buffer against any immediate bottleneck in supplies."


    "Singapore imported 59 million tonnes of sand from Malaysia in 2018, at a cost of US$347 million, according to United Nations Comtrade data, which is based on information provided by individual countries' customs offices.

    That accounted for 97 per cent of Singapore's total sand imports in the year by volume, and 95 per cent of Malaysia's global sand sales.

    The data does not distinguish between types of sand.

    Mr Mahathir, who put in place a similar sea sand ban when he was prime minister in the 1990s, has also tightened regulations on river and estuary sand exports, the government sources added."

    Apparently, the ban is not just on sea sand.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  4. #44
    Queen

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    Default Re: UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    I am always open-minded. This is from your article.

    "Two traders importing sand to Singapore, who both asked not to be named, said the commodity is becoming scarcer and driving Singapore to source sand from as far as India, which would push up costs. Shipping is the biggest single cost in acquiring sand.

    The traders added Singapore has been stockpiling sand in recent years which could provide a buffer against any immediate bottleneck in supplies."


    "Singapore imported 59 million tonnes of sand from Malaysia in 2018, at a cost of US$347 million, according to United Nations Comtrade data, which is based on information provided by individual countries' customs offices.

    That accounted for 97 per cent of Singapore's total sand imports in the year by volume, and 95 per cent of Malaysia's global sand sales.

    The data does not distinguish between types of sand.

    Mr Mahathir, who put in place a similar sea sand ban when he was prime minister in the 1990s, has also tightened regulations on river and estuary sand exports, the government sources added."

    Apparently, the ban is not just on sea sand.
    Well, it may have an impact on construction costs but looks very minimal and this sand issue alone won't cause property prices to rise by $100psf. If construction cost do rise by that much, developers will be smart to adjust their land bids too.

    Take a look at construction material prices published by gov.
    https://www.tablebuilder.singstat.gov.sg/publicfacing/displayChart.action

    Concrete and granite prices looks fairly stable. It is steel that is fluctuating wildly.

    Lets stop making such a big fuss out of sea sand.

  5. #45
    Ultimate Underdog

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    Default Re: UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site

    http://blog.nus.edu.sg/awalkinthepark/2016/10/18/land-reclamation-in-singapore/

    "This involves dredging from lake beds and sea beds in other countries to supply us with the sand..."

    Apparently lake sand can also be used for reclamation. They may be substitutes of each other, even if they are not perfect substitutes.

    Thus, there will be some channelling of the lake sand reserved for buildings towards reclamation instead. Tell me that does not affect prices?



    Quote Originally Posted by annetyu View Post
    You claimed that seasand is the same kind used for construction.

    Good that you are learning to read then comment now. Still, we are unsure of the different grades of sand so unable to make meaningful conclusions.

    However, data well show that we are able to cope very well after the ban of sand from indonesia, with cement prices declining since 2008.

    I think labour costs and developer land bids have a much greater impact on property prices than sand costs.

    Some quotes from an article I just read (JUL19)... https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/government-economy/in-blow-to-singapores-expansion-malaysia-bans-sea-sand-exports

    "Sea sand is mostly used for land reclamation, while river sand is a core component in constructions materials like cement." As you said, its river and lake sand that is used for cement, not the seasand involved in the Malaysia ban...

    "Singapore's Ministry of National Development, which oversees sand imports, did not directly respond to questions about a ban by Malaysia but said it had multiple sources of sand and was cutting back its use of the commodity."

    "Sand is imported on a commercial basis from various countries to ensure resilience in our sand supply,"

    I am very open-minded, you should be too. I think my case is stronger than yours.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  6. #46
    Ultimate Underdog

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    Default Re: UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site

    River and estuary sands were also similarly banned from what I understand. So stop harping about sea sand.


    Quote Originally Posted by annetyu View Post
    Well, it may have an impact on construction costs but looks very minimal and this sand issue alone won't cause property prices to rise by $100psf. If construction cost do rise by that much, developers will be smart to adjust their land bids too.

    Take a look at construction material prices published by gov.
    https://www.tablebuilder.singstat.gov.sg/publicfacing/displayChart.action

    Concrete and granite prices looks fairly stable. It is steel that is fluctuating wildly.

    Lets stop making such a big fuss out of sea sand.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  7. #47
    Queen

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    Default Re: UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelonguni View Post
    http://blog.nus.edu.sg/awalkinthepark/2016/10/18/land-reclamation-in-singapore/

    "This involves dredging from lake beds and sea beds in other countries to supply us with the sand..."

    Apparently lake sand can also be used for reclamation. They may be substitutes of each other, even if they are not perfect substitutes.

    Thus, there will be some channelling of the lake sand reserved for buildings towards reclamation instead. Tell me that does not affect prices?
    Not saying sand won't affect construction cost but by how much? $50psf? $200psf or $8psf? The impact will not be as drastic as you are trying to describe.

    Developers award construction contracts through tender. Usually the lowest bid wins so the most resourceful and cost-effective construction company will get the contract. These companies usually have economies of scale and able to reduce costs through other means such as technology and automation.
    Last edited by annetyu; 10th July 2019 at 03:49 PM.

  8. #48
    Ultimate Underdog

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    Default Re: UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site

    OK noted.

    But thanks for the resources sent.

    The data is very worrying indeed. I looked at the cost of concreting sand, concrete and cement costs in this table at the period when Indonesia banned sand (2007). As of now, we have managed to stockpile so price pressures are not felt yet. Refer to attachment.

    But it will run out in a couple of years as well...





    Quote Originally Posted by annetyu View Post
    Not saying sand won't affect construction cost but by how much? $50psf? $200psf or $8psf? The impact will not be as drastic as you are trying to describe.

    Developers award construction contracts through tender. Usually the lowest bid wins so the most resourceful and cost-effective construction company will get the contract. These companies usually have economies of scale and able to reduce costs through other means such as technology and automation.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

  9. #49
    Senior

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    Default Re: UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site

    it all adds up. higher comms for agents as well. difficult to expect UOL to sell cheap. if parc clematis sells at 14xx then at best uol undercut and sell at 1388psf loh.

  10. #50
    Ultimate Underdog

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    Default Re: UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site

    https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/education/p1-registration-6-popular-schools-oversubscribed-in-third-phase-children-may


    Popular or not popular?

    You decide.

    But the facts speak for themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by annetyu View Post
    https://www.salary.sg/2018/best-primary-schools-2018/

    Nan Hua not exactly among the most popular primary schools.

    Indeed just a sales tactic.
    The three laws of Kelonguni:

    Where there is kelong, there is guni.
    No kelong no guni.
    More kelong = more guni.

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