Illuminaire (D9, Freehold, EL Development)

[proud owner]

That guy no holding power mah. Buy property first make sure can tong and strike when such good deal occurs.
Interest at 1.9% is damn low already. Furthermore if not TOP means loan not fully drawn down so interest charges even lower.

thats another reason why now not DPS ..average buyer can only afford mid tier ..

which is why govt abit worried... although they buy what they can 'hold' but if any bad news they will be the group that will cut loss ..

all investment has its risk .. hold power is one thing ..guts is another ..

do home work and not act on 'hearsay' ... i believe alot here do homework ..

its upgraders i worry .. they are a big base group .. if cannot hold ,,they cut ..will also pull mkt down

[orange]

teddy and I have quarrelled before, but much as I hate to admit, he was goddamn right in April about property prices heading up. the rest of you... just suck thumb lah.

[bargain hunter]

some facts: the guy who sold at 1600psf, Ardmore II, #24-04, lost more than 30% on it. Looks like he really needed to get out, whatever the price. the guy who bought from him on 1 Apr sold on 27 Apr for only 1799psf...where got hold until 2650? LOL.

sounds good
but honestly ..that is not typical ...
i saw the caveat too at 2650 psf but at the same time theres another unit for sale lower at 2400 ish psf ..

meanwhile from apr to now .. how much are you serivicng the loan ? ARD II not TOP yet .. no rental income also

and its not liq like gold ..
if wrong can always sell back

if ARD II is wrong sell to who ?

to begin with ..why you think that guy sold at 1600 psf in apr in the first place ?

[Property_Owner]

some facts: the guy who sold at 1600psf, Ardmore II, #24-04, lost more than 30% on it. Looks like he really needed to get out, whatever the price. the guy who bought from him on 1 Apr sold on 27 Apr for only 1799psf...where got hold until 2650? LOL.

remember the Sail unit which I mentioned before?

[bargain hunter]

yup, actually its not so easy to compare whether one can make more on property or other asset classes. the time frame is usually different and one should go in prepared for a longer term view.

remember the Sail unit which I mentioned before?

[teddybear]

I am just giving real transacted price but hypothetical in
assuming they are same unit. May be this guy who bough $1799 psf holding out now for $5000 psf?

some facts: the guy who sold at 1600psf, Ardmore II, #24-04, lost more than 30% on it. Looks like he really needed to get out, whatever the price. the guy who bought from him on 1 Apr sold on 27 Apr for only 1799psf...where got hold until 2650? LOL.

[HP65]

teddy and I have quarrelled before, but much as I hate to admit, he was goddamn right in April about property prices heading up. the rest of you... just suck thumb lah.

Back in Apr, I deliberately stayed away from properties but plow my $ in many different instruments. All of it made many times more than if I had bought a property in Apr. And mind you, I did not even leverage completely but only for small gamble in leveraged indexes. Gold returns the least, but its a hedge, not so much for capital gains.

And I still maintain that there are many other investments out there that can yield better returns than Singapore properties. Back in Apr, I mentioned gold, but only as a counter arguement that property is a good inflation hedge but some smart teddy alec think I'm nuts, and he still thinks so, haha, but it doesn't matter, if fools choose to invest unwisely, its their lost, not mine. Property MIGHT be a good inflation hedge but only if you do not borrow. When mortagage interests start rising, which MAS just spoke about, some 6-9 mths after I mentioned it earlier on, and when there are not enough tenants to rent to, lets see whether the current property bulls are still around to blow their trumpet.

[HP65]

How much is the return of gold from Apr till now? Instead of saying how many people flipping property can match gains in gold price without leverage, why not compare "with leverage"? Ha ha! Simple. How you leverage at low borrowing rate and large sum of $$$ with gold? No way!

Let me quote just an example of exemplary returns with property (many other examples of exemplary returns out there):
If a person bought Ardmore II 2024 sf unit in Apr at $1600 psf (real transaction) by justing putting down 20% and borrow the rest at 1.9% interest pa, he could have sold it at $2650 psf recently (real transaction as well). As such, his profit is $2.125m from just putting down about $648k ! His return is 328.1% with respect to $648k ! Tell me, has gold gone up by >328.1% from Apr till now? We have not even considered the rental income yet (but I will just write that off with equivalent interest charges although rental yield is higher than interest charges). Also, I am definitely sure that gold will go back to square one again in next 10 years (i.e. fall back to below US$500 an ounce). Gold is just good for speculations, not long-term investment. Could you receive rental income or live in it for gold (just like property)? Rather, invest in gold and you get hit with all sort of administrative and management charges annually! Lower returns again! Long-term, it is a depreciating assets because of all these charges.

Its so dangerous reading/ listening to all your rubbish. Gold is never about speculation, but a store of value. And your arguement that one can buy a property and receive rental, well, that only applies if you do not leverage, hence my comparison of buying Gold without borrowings. If you have to borrow to buy property, then you still need to pay installment and most likely even subsidise the tenant by topping up. That is just plain stupid, its like doing charity work.

let me guess, more likely than not, you are blowing for property prices to keep increasing because you have just bought one recently or you bought it high before and still under-water. So you hope to pass the hot potato to ignorant home buyers.

These arguements you put forth to justify buying a property, instead of other forms of investment are so lame that it can only come from crook sales agents or owners holding on to hot potatos.

[teddybear]

Back in Apr 2009, you told forumers here to avoid properties because property bubble will burst and may even have deflation (blah blah blah...). You said: "I said there is a property bubble since property px has risen beyond real owners affordability.
The current correction in property price will come regardless whether there is recession or not for the simple fact it was a bubble waiting to burst. The global financial crisis and now global recession just happens to be the needle that prick the balloon.
Just to throw the discussion off-tangent a bit, actually in a few months time, the discussion above may even be moot because we could even be staring at an even more frightening monster, a deflation leading to a depression. ... "

This is just quoting 1 post because you made similar comments in many many posts. Then you ask forumers here to buy gold because buy properties is like "digging own grave" and buy gold sure make lots of money. Then you attacked me for hidden agenda for being bullish on properties etc etc.

Now is already Nov 2009. Since Apr 2009 when you keep insisting properties price sure drop like you are "God", properties prices have gone up in only 1 direction: that is UP UP UP.

Then you said you make lots of money from gold. I ask you to show the return of gold from Apr 2009 till now and then you now said your return in gold is the lowest among all your different instruments. I didn't say I am smart but you act like you really are. Ok, give you 1 more chance: show which instruments you invest that can give you >328% return from Apr till now? Forumers here have eyes to see and brain to think and judge. They will be the judges here. There is no point in empty talks and bull-shits.

Back in Apr, I deliberately stayed away from properties but plow my $ in many different instruments. All of it made many times more than if I had bought a property in Apr. And mind you, I did not even leverage completely but only for small gamble in leveraged indexes. Gold returns the least, but its a hedge, not so much for capital gains.

And I still maintain that there are many other investments out there that can yield better returns than Singapore properties. Back in Apr, I mentioned gold, but only as a counter arguement that property is a good inflation hedge but some smart teddy alec think I'm nuts, and he still thinks so, haha, but it doesn't matter, if fools choose to invest unwisely, its their lost, not mine. Property MIGHT be a good inflation hedge but only if you do not borrow. When mortagage interests start rising, which MAS just spoke about, some 6-9 mths after I mentioned it earlier on, and when there are not enough tenants to rent to, lets see whether the current property bulls are still around to blow their trumpet.

Sorry but I know its rude but this is precisely what I mean by talking through your ass. Look at your own post, `may'? `Why not?' Are you sure or are you hypothesing that the scenario will pan out? You said its `possible' in an earlier post. What's the probability? You are just sprouting rubbish that you do not even understand. So please save this kind of coffeeshop Theory of Economics with your fellow coffeeshop buddies.

Pls do not mistake normal inflation in a growing economy with the kind of hyperinflation that some bulls here used to justify property as a good hedge for inflation. And while you are at it, in fact salaries indeed did not rise in tandem with headline inflation. In fact real income decrease which is why I said there is a property bubble since property px has risen beyond real owners affordability.

The current correction in property price will come regardless whether there is recession or not for the simple fact it was a bubble waiting to burst. The global financial crisis and now global recession just happens to be the needle that prick the balloon.

Just to throw the discussion off-tangent a bit, actually in a few months time, the discussion above may even be moot because we could even be staring at an even more frightening monster, a deflation leading to a depression. And in a depression, lets just say 2/3 of the people in this forum will not even be surfing here anymore because they do not have money to pay their electricity bills. When that time come, I believe the only safe profession (monetary wise) are your police and soldiers. US Fed has already announced this last night.

So please stop the bullshit about inflation being a good enough reason to buy properties.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...mUo&refer=home

Originally Posted by trump7
Before you point out whether people talks thought their xxx, pls see your theory first.
You said when inflation comes, people even don`t have money to feed themselves, but why you cannot think your salary will be raised according to degree of inflation???
Can`t you remember singapore had the kind of inflation 1-2 years ago?
At that time were there so many people who are suffering for starving??

All the market prices including house has been keeoing rising slowly according to inflation, and it is very sure that cannot compare the value of momey with 30 or 40 years ago.

Since this is quite abnormal that US issued so much dollors at once, and what I mean it may occur sudden and impactable inflation to us.
Why not it comes suddenly since sub-prime cricis came to us suddenly last Oct??

Once this kind of inflation comes, there will be big difference between people who only has cash and who has property or gold.
Those people has the big loan will be very much happy since value of loan will be dropped a lot!

[teddybear]

Ok, assuming I talk rubbish and you didn't:
You said in Apr 2009 that properties prices sure drop and bubble sure burst. From then till now in Nov 2009, you keep insisting properties prices will drop but instead properties prices is UP UP UP.
So, who is talking rubbish many times over?

When we invest, we want max returns, regardless of leverage or not. The billionaires are billionaires because they leverage (but smartly). Which billionaires didn't leverage? If you don't leverage, then I am quite sure you return is going to be mediocre and limited.

Now you are accusing me as "crook sales agents or owners holding on to hot potatos" and trying to blow up property prices to pass hot potato to ignorant home buyers. Well, if this the case and I have been bullish about properties since Apr 2009, whoever "ignorant home buyers" who bought the "hot potato" from me must be laughing all the way to the bank with property prices going UP UP UP since then!

You keep emphasizing other forms of investments. Could you be more constructive to other forumers here by enlightening them what other good forms of investments there are and what returns can be had over Apr-Nov 2009 that is much much better than properties as you highlighted? Otherwise, it is just empty talks. As the saying goes, "Empty vessels make the loudest noise".

Its so dangerous reading/ listening to all your rubbish. Gold is never about speculation, but a store of value. And your arguement that one can buy a property and receive rental, well, that only applies if you do not leverage, hence my comparison of buying Gold without borrowings. If you have to borrow to buy property, then you still need to pay installment and most likely even subsidise the tenant by topping up. That is just plain stupid, its like doing charity work.

let me guess, more likely than not, you are blowing for property prices to keep increasing because you have just bought one recently or you bought it high before and still under-water. So you hope to pass the hot potato to ignorant home buyers.

These arguements you put forth to justify buying a property, instead of other forms of investment are so lame that it can only come from crook sales agents or owners holding on to hot potatos.

[jlrx]

When we invest, we want max returns, regardless of leverage or not. The billionaires are billionaires because they leverage (but smartly). Which billionaires didn't leverage? If you don't leverage, then I am quite sure you return is going to be mediocre and limited.

For the average person, properties represents the most leveraged instrument of investment which provides the greatest peace of mind (provided you have "faith", which I shall elaborate later).

During the plunge after the Lehman crisis, my property portfolio went down by more than a million dollars. Even though I was sad, life went on as long as I could pay the installments. Now it has bounced back up again and even surpassed the pre-crisis level.

To get the same amount of exposure in other instruments, even if leverage is available, would be very scary.

Can you imagine buying $5 million dollars worth of shares using UOB share trading account's "Attractive financing margin of up to 65% for marginable stocks and shares".

This means you have to come up with 35% of $5 million or $1.75 million !!!

Who would normally have such a huge amount of cash in the bank?

Then when the market plunges (e.g. DBS shares plunged from $20 to $7 per share), your entire $1.75 million would be wiped out! Margin Call! Margin Call! Your account is ZERO. Margin Call! Margin Call!

Won't you feel very very sick in the stomach?

On the other hand, if there is no leveraging and the investment amount is small, with exposure of less than half-a-million, then the gains or losses will also be very small and it is simply a waste of time.

In contrast, losing $1.75 million in properties does not feel so bad because the banks usually won't disturb you unless the market value really falls very much below your outstanding loan.

As long as you can service your monthly installments promptly, they will be more accommodating compared to shares.

Furthermore, if you believe in my religion called "Propertism", and your "faith" is strong that in the long run, cash always devalues so property always appreciates, then you can have a better night's sleep compared to those who invest in other instruments of investment.

[HP65]

Ok, assuming I talk rubbish and you didn't:
You said in Apr 2009 that properties prices sure drop and bubble sure burst. From then till now in Nov 2009, you keep insisting properties prices will drop but instead properties prices is UP UP UP.
So, who is talking rubbish many times over?

When we invest, we want max returns, regardless of leverage or not. The billionaires are billionaires because they leverage (but smartly). Which billionaires didn't leverage? If you don't leverage, then I am quite sure you return is going to be mediocre and limited.

Now you are accusing me as "crook sales agents or owners holding on to hot potatos" and trying to blow up property prices to pass hot potato to ignorant home buyers. Well, if this the case and I have been bullish about properties since Apr 2009, whoever "ignorant home buyers" who bought the "hot potato" from me must be laughing all the way to the bank with property prices going UP UP UP since then!

You keep emphasizing other forms of investments. Could you be more constructive to other forumers here by enlightening them what other good forms of investments there are and what returns can be had over Apr-Nov 2009 that is much much better than properties as you highlighted? Otherwise, it is just empty talks. As the saying goes, "Empty vessels make the loudest noise".

Sorry, there is no free lunch in my books. I mentioned before, talk to your PB, and I assume you have access to that, if not too bad. I have hinted leveraged indexes as one of my investment instruments, so you can imagine how many times more returns I get than your quoted example of the Ardmore unit. I made enough to buy 2 units of Ardmore if I want to.

Point is, property when speculated, is harmful and unproductive for society. Want to speculate, choose other proper speculative instruments. If the whole society thinks property speculation is the fastest and quickest way to wealth accumulation, I greatly condemn it and discourage it. It only benefits the few, like other forumer who thinks now is the best time to buy AND sell in 6-9 mths. Ha! Property is now commodities trading? Futures trading on paper only?

And one more time, if you do not understand, my suggestion for Gold was to counter arguements that property is a good hedge against inflation. For investments, i will not consider Singapore properties just yet. Its too small and speculated by people like you. And since its been speculated, it will plunge easily too. If not because of govt printing $, trust me, you would be pissing in your pants now instead of being cocky here. But i have to admit because of the massive injection of printed $, i have also benefited greatly but with less risk than singapore properties but more rewards.

[teddybear]

Ok, got your message: You have nothing to back up your statement that there is other investments that can earn more than 328% compared to the example I quoted for property (and you said you don't even need leverage to achieve that some more) and hence you cannot answer directly but need to beat around the bush. Never mind. I believe other forumers here can understand your message as well.
If you keep singing that properties prices will fall, may be you will be right one day (10 years later? ).

Sorry, there is no free lunch in my books. I mentioned before, talk to your PB, and I assume you have access to that, if not too bad. I have hinted leveraged indexes as one of my investment instruments, so you can imagine how many times more returns I get than your quoted example of the Ardmore unit. I made enough to buy 2 units of Ardmore if I want to.

Point is, property when speculated, is harmful and unproductive for society. Want to speculate, choose other proper speculative instruments. If the whole society thinks property speculation is the fastest and quickest way to wealth accumulation, I greatly condemn it and discourage it. It only benefits the few, like other forumer who thinks now is the best time to buy AND sell in 6-9 mths. Ha! Property is now commodities trading? Futures trading on paper only?

And one more time, if you do not understand, my suggestion for Gold was to counter arguements that property is a good hedge against inflation. For investments, i will not consider Singapore properties just yet. Its too small and speculated by people like you. And since its been speculated, it will plunge easily too. If not because of govt printing $, trust me, you would be pissing in your pants now instead of being cocky here. But i have to admit because of the massive injection of printed $, i have also benefited greatly but with less risk than singapore properties but more rewards.

[moneyspinner]

For the average person, properties represents the most leveraged instrument of investment which provides the greatest peace of mind (provided you have "faith", which I shall elaborate later).

During the plunge after the Lehman crisis, my property portfolio went down by more than a million dollars. Even though I was sad, life went on as long as I could pay the installments. Now it has bounced back up again and even surpassed the pre-crisis level.

To get the same amount of exposure in other instruments, even if leverage is available, would be very scary.

Can you imagine buying $5 million dollars worth of shares using UOB share trading account's "Attractive financing margin of up to 65% for marginable stocks and shares".

This means you have to come up with 35% of $5 million or $1.75 million !!!

Who would normally have such a huge amount of cash in the bank?

Then when the market plunges (e.g. DBS shares plunged from $20 to $7 per share), your entire $1.75 million would be wiped out! Margin Call! Margin Call! Your account is ZERO. Margin Call! Margin Call!

Won't you feel very very sick in the stomach?

On the other hand, if there is no leveraging and the investment amount is small, with exposure of less than half-a-million, then the gains or losses will also be very small and it is simply a waste of time.

In contrast, losing $1.75 million in properties does not feel so bad because the banks usually won't disturb you unless the market value really falls very much below your outstanding loan.

As long as you can service your monthly installments promptly, they will be more accommodating compared to shares.

Furthermore, if you believe in my religion called "Propertism", and your "faith" is strong that in the long run, cash always devalues so property always appreciates, then you can have a better night's sleep compared to those who invest in other instruments of investment.

Precisely, that's why its always good to pick deferred payment scheme provided, of course, that the price of the property you purchase is not exorbitantly priced.

[kane]

if value drops by too much for the bank's liking, come deferred payment date, the bank might tell you they are disbursing a lesser amount, so make sure you keep in touch with your banker.

[moneyspinner]

if value drops by too much for the bank's liking, come deferred payment date, the bank might tell you they are disbursing a lesser amount, so make sure you keep in touch with your banker.

Thank you. Hence, go for it only when you see that the property market is on the way up and not the other way! When the market peaks, its hands off time.

[Hexx]

This one also start to move already, got to know that a studio was transacted at 2188 psf last month.

[dmonddd]

will the prices continue to go up? Crystal ball pls.

State Council approves trial property tax

April 23, 2010: The government has given the go ahead to a trial property tax in four cities. While the details are still not clear, would-be home buyers may hold back

China’s State Council has signed off on a trial property tax in Beijing, Chongqing, Shenzhen and Shanghai in a long-awaited move aimed at slowing the rapid rise in property prices seen over the...

[devilplate]

For the average person, properties represents the most leveraged instrument of investment which provides the greatest peace of mind (provided you have "faith", which I shall elaborate later).

During the plunge after the Lehman crisis, my property portfolio went down by more than a million dollars. Even though I was sad, life went on as long as I could pay the installments. Now it has bounced back up again and even surpassed the pre-crisis level.

To get the same amount of exposure in other instruments, even if leverage is available, would be very scary.

Can you imagine buying $5 million dollars worth of shares using UOB share trading account's "Attractive financing margin of up to 65% for marginable stocks and shares".

This means you have to come up with 35% of $5 million or $1.75 million !!!

Who would normally have such a huge amount of cash in the bank?

Then when the market plunges (e.g. DBS shares plunged from $20 to $7 per share), your entire $1.75 million would be wiped out! Margin Call! Margin Call! Your account is ZERO. Margin Call! Margin Call!

Won't you feel very very sick in the stomach?

On the other hand, if there is no leveraging and the investment amount is small, with exposure of less than half-a-million, then the gains or losses will also be very small and it is simply a waste of time.

In contrast, losing $1.75 million in properties does not feel so bad because the banks usually won't disturb you unless the market value really falls very much below your outstanding loan.

As long as you can service your monthly installments promptly, they will be more accommodating compared to shares.

Furthermore, if you believe in my religion called "Propertism", and your "faith" is strong that in the long run, cash always devalues so property always appreciates, then you can have a better night's sleep compared to those who invest in other instruments of investment.

I have been reading some of ur posts...it certainly make sense...remember many top richies in the world r having 1000+ ppty internationally. Those top richies strongly believe in property wealth accumulation...and they r smart enough to buy during every dips.

To add, in SG, a ppty can never get 'delisted' except for those 99LH ppty tat has a 99yrs expiry date. Overall, ppty is generally safer den stocks if u play the game well.

However, u cannot 'short' ppty...hehe

[Jonathan0503]

Just saw a report in BT relating to rental yield of prime projects.

The rental of illuminaire is impressive:

$6.80 to $10.20 psf for 441 to 721 sqft.

Assuming $10.20 is for 441 sf, rental would be close to $4.5K per month

[dtrax]

propertyguru still av 3.4-3.8k for MMs there

[phantom_opera]

record psf

1 JUL 2013 65 DEVONSHIRE ROAD #XX-XX 441 2,606psf 12 MAY 2009 1,718 391,608 1,511 10.6