View Poll Results: Bull or Bear

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    38 50.67%
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Thread: Property market sentiments?

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    I am a seasoned stock trader but not a seasoned property investor but I believe both stock trading and property investment share common techniques and insight. Honestly speaking, so far I only read about mr apple3's analysis and balanced view and I have not seen anybody else contributed anything even close to the Goldman Sach report. Those who already bought will say "buy buy buy", those who are desperate to buy will just quote all kind of negative news to try to talk down the market. So, if you have better interpretation & analysis about the figures provided by GS report, do share in this forum.
    hmmm ... I voted 'bullish' rt at the beginning even before my first post in this thread ... don't think I will say "buy buy buy" leh. Likewise, I think another forumer (stanlingrad) got a unit waiting to TOP & shift in, but also nvr see him say "buy buy buy" leh ...

    Thanks for your contributions ... your posts so far quite close to the GS report mah, since you quoted numbers from inside .. suppose anyone in this forum is entitled to his or her interpretation - & by that, it could mean someone's view on the mkt, ques on your post, etc.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by HP65
    I actually hope more sellers will withdraw their units, especially the better units so that I will be able to buy these better units at a lower price next year.

    I maintain this rally is good as it will weed out competition.
    Sounds logical .. that's a +ve way of seeing it

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by HP65
    I actually hope more sellers will withdraw their units, especially the better units so that I will be able to buy these better units at a lower price next year.

    I maintain this rally is good as it will weed out competition.
    Concur. Need price to go up higher, so that more launches coming online, more people take the plunge and more people will withdraw their for sale units, so that when the inevitable comes, there will be more value buys.

    Still suspect that prices have not gone up far enough to tempt for more launches and specuvestors. Really need to continue this momentum for a longer period.

    But for those whom are buying for own stay.....anythime is a good time.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackswan
    But for those whom are buying for own stay.....anythime is a good time.
    No lah.. what if u buy Reflections at Keppel in 2nd half 2007 at $2500 psf.... sure mati cock stand.... buy for own stay lor.... every day can stare at the Keppel shipyard reflecting on own stupidity...

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheerful
    hmmm ... I voted 'bullish' rt at the beginning even before my first post in this thread ... don't think I will say "buy buy buy" leh. Likewise, I think another forumer (stanlingrad) got a unit waiting to TOP & shift in, but also nvr see him say "buy buy buy" leh ...

    Thanks for your contributions ... your posts so far quite close to the GS report mah, since you quoted numbers from inside .. suppose anyone in this forum is entitled to his or her interpretation - & by that, it could mean someone's view on the mkt, ques on your post, etc.
    May be I need to make my stand clear. In general, from a fundamental perspective, I agree with mr apple3 that property market will go sideways so in general there is no hurry to buy. But again, I am a pure technical chartist. All the charts (oil, commodities, STI, S&P500, China stocks, BDI) are pointing to asset inflation and further gain ahead. Therefore, you have to forgive my bullishness as this is my natural ability as a stock trader to take risk when bullish market signals appear. The big problem about SG property market is that there is no real time chart that can tell you what exactly is happening right now so applying TA to SG property market is tough. Based on TA on the URA property index back then, I figured out index at 140 is a good entry point but you see I need to wait for Q2 index to be released to confirm this.

    BTW, it is really fun with Mr Stanlin ... how is your S&P500 short position? I hope you have stop loss in place Shorting S&P500 immediately after it regains 200d MA has a low rate of success in the history. FYI, I am long on BRIC ETF which has strong bias towards oil/commodities

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    May be I need to make my stand clear. In general, from a fundamental perspective, I agree with mr apple3 that property market will go sideways so in general there is no hurry to buy. But again, I am a pure technical chartist. All the charts (oil, commodities, STI, S&P500, China stocks, BDI) are pointing to asset inflation and further gain ahead. Therefore, you have to forgive my bullishness as this is my natural ability as a stock trader to take risk when bullish market signals appear. The big problem about SG property market is that there is no real time chart that can tell you what exactly is happening right now so applying TA to SG property market is tough. Based on TA on the URA property index back then, I figured out index at 140 is a good entry point but you see I need to wait for Q2 index to be released to confirm this.

    BTW, it is really fun with Mr Stanlin ... how is your S&P500 short position? I hope you have stop loss in place Shorting S&P500 immediately after it regains 200d MA has a low rate of success in the history. FYI, I am long on BRIC ETF which has strong bias towards oil/commodities
    Simple, your flaw is in trying to TA Sg Property. Stocks is different from properties, period.

    Since you have bought already, just keep quiet and wait for your OCR condo to TOP and stay in it. No need be so bullish about the economy now by posting charts, anal reports etc coz if there is any upswing in property prices now, it also wouldnt reach your OCR, thus no chance for you to flip your property. It will only benefit those properties in 1,9,10,11, Sentosa. If you wanted to make quick buck, stick to the prime districts mentioned above.

    Unless you have a property to unload now, I dun see why you should be trying so hard to keep being so bullish about the current state of economic affairs. I would rather save the bull reports when my project is about to TOP.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by HP65
    Simple, your flaw is in trying to TA Sg Property. Stocks is different from properties, period.

    Since you have bought already, just keep quiet and wait for your OCR condo to TOP and stay in it. No need be so bullish about the economy now by posting charts, anal reports etc coz if there is any upswing in property prices now, it also wouldnt reach your OCR, thus no chance for you to flip your property. It will only benefit those properties in 1,9,10,11, Sentosa. If you wanted to make quick buck, stick to the prime districts mentioned above.

    Unless you have a property to unload now, I dun see why you should be trying so hard to keep being so bullish about the current state of economic affairs. I would rather save the bull reports when my project is about to TOP.
    You talk like everyone has selfish motive & only interested in prime properties/making a quick buck when they come to this forum. If it is like that, this forum will be totally worthless. Luckily there are other forumers who contribute without any agenda. What is wrong about sharing bullish sentiment when my TA of charts tell me so? Since I am the only TA guy around here. Isn't that make this forum more interesting?

    BTW, the "anal" GS report is not contributed by me. It was posted by one guy in WFW thread.

  8. #218
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    Default DBSS The Peak

    A bit of condolences for those who overpaid their condo
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    A bit of condolences for those who overpaid their condo
    which condo is this?

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    You talk like everyone has selfish motive & only interested in prime properties/making a quick buck when they come to this forum. If it is like that, this forum will be totally worthless. Luckily there are other forumers who contribute without any agenda. What is wrong about sharing bullish sentiment when my TA of charts tell me so? Since I am the only TA guy around here. Isn't that make this forum more interesting?

    BTW, the "anal" GS report is not contributed by me. It was posted by one guy in WFW thread.
    I'm not sure if everyone has a selfish motive or not, but I'm darn sure you are bullish and love to share bullish charts, reports etc.

    And your TA charts is irrelevant when it comes to property, so dun come here and act `smart' with all your rubbish. So it doesnt make the forum more interesting. Maybe you can create a poll and ask people to vote

    And why do you now `hide' behind the stage and say you weren't the original contributor to the GS report? Does it really matter that you didnt post it? What matters is you quoted (if i may add, erroneously) from the report and try to paint a bullish picture.

    Pls stop acting like a saint

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by HP65
    I'm not sure if everyone has a selfish motive or not, but I'm darn sure you are bullish and love to share bullish charts, reports etc.

    And your TA charts is irrelevant when it comes to property, so dun come here and act `smart' with all your rubbish. So it doesnt make the forum more interesting. Maybe you can create a poll and ask people to vote

    And why do you now `hide' behind the stage and say you weren't the original contributor to the GS report? Does it really matter that you didnt post it? What matters is you quoted (if i may add, erroneously) from the report and try to paint a bullish picture.

    Pls stop acting like a saint
    May I suggest you become this forum's moderator Then you are free to delete my posts

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    Property is still a good hedge against inflation in Singapore. This is not my own conclusion but according to research from NUS.
    You shd not go around babbling this like it is gospel truth. (Agents love this line.)

    If you go in at the wrong point in the cycle, you may not be back at status quo even after 7 yrs.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    I think this situation is going to last for a while with stable price as we have 270k 5-room HDBs, even just 5% decides to take the plunge, that translates to 13,500 units of mass market condos.
    Where the 5% during the previous 2 down cycles?

  14. #224
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    just remember that we are all in this mess because of the creative engineering of securities instruments sold by all these people, do you still trust them ....
    Quote Originally Posted by blackswan
    The question is how much worth are these reports or analysis when only a couple of months ago that Citi, CS and a few other houses are predicting massive price decline......and now that when prices are up, they change their tune in favour of price appreciation now.

    So again the question.........what's the worth in this kind of research?

    Goldman called for a SuperSpike in oil last year to USD$200bp, yesterday, they are calling for USD$ 85.

    In just slightly below one year, they have cut their target but a massive 56%. does it mean all the fundamentals, market factor changes so drastically........

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    May I suggest you become this forum's moderator Then you are free to delete my posts
    Nah, even if I'm the moderator, I wouldnt delete your posts coz I want others to see how foolish you are, hohoho.

  16. #226
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    Some bearish views from an expat:

    10 Good reasons to be a Singapore property bear

    1. The current "greenshoots" recovery is totally driven by taxpayers money. Not just cash reserves but mostly future tax income. This means for decades, Govts will not be able to spend on essential services and infrastructure. There has not been an upswing in production or demand just a inflow of borrowed taxpayers cash. So we have yet another mini bubble created by false liquidity without any new wealth creation.

    2. The global economy has stopped its downward spiral but it is still sick and many parts of it are still dying. It is most likely the West will flatline and stagnate for decades which will put the entire Singapore economy at risk. Just look at the last Q loss for NCL.

    3. While the economy may not yet hit its bottom, interest rates certainly have. The only way forward is up for interest rates as banks attract private equity to re-capitalise. Singapore will need to follow this trend. This will devastate property affordability. Because Singapore is comming off such a low base rate now. Just a 1% rate increase will cut the amount able to be borrowed by 20 -30%. This will reflect with a corresponding price drop.

    4. Supply. The supply is 3 X higher than during the last property crash in 97. The supply issue compounds from 2010 onwards.

    5. DPS. This is Singapores subprime on steriods. If it wasnt a problem, the Govt would not have cut it off in 07. This hits the fan in 2010

    6.Historical data. The 15 year historical data shows Singapore property to be one of the worst performing asset classes in the world both from a yield and capital gain. Its been said here before that if you bought in 96 you were still underwater even at the peak of 07. The people here who talk about "missing the boat" are just dumb. The boat hasnt been built yet. The agent trolls who bought in 07 will be passing on negative equity to their children.

    7. Cultural. The kiasu culture will always mean that the Singapore market will vastly overshoot its value in an upswing. The controlled mindset of the masses by the media etc means they have a lemming mentality that doesnt know its falling off a cliff until they hit the rocks. Like now.

    8. Structural. The structure of the Singapore property market is inverse to most Western markets ie it is 80% public and 20% private. This will change over time as more HDBs are replaced with Condo apartments. There is no lack of space in Singapore just a lack of 1st world accommodation. As this changes over time the relative value of Condos will decrease.

    9. Affordability. Singapore has one of the worlds highest household debt levels because they are paying too much for housing. 8% of HDB owners are in default. The price of housing has been pushed up by speculation and poor economic management. Now the expat exodus has begun, the ability of the market to repay this debt is at risk.

    10. Global unstability. With a flatline western demand, China will struggle to fill its factories with workers. China faces an un certain future in a low growth world. This will mean more global tax resource will be focused on defence and security. Refer to point 1 which means even less money for building a better world.

    http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/...c,53263.0.html
    I'm a potential buyer.

  17. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by firec
    Some bearish views from an expat:

    10 Good reasons to be a Singapore property bear

    1. The current "greenshoots" recovery is totally driven by taxpayers money. Not just cash reserves but mostly future tax income. This means for decades, Govts will not be able to spend on essential services and infrastructure. There has not been an upswing in production or demand just a inflow of borrowed taxpayers cash. So we have yet another mini bubble created by false liquidity without any new wealth creation.

    2. The global economy has stopped its downward spiral but it is still sick and many parts of it are still dying. It is most likely the West will flatline and stagnate for decades which will put the entire Singapore economy at risk. Just look at the last Q loss for NCL.

    3. While the economy may not yet hit its bottom, interest rates certainly have. The only way forward is up for interest rates as banks attract private equity to re-capitalise. Singapore will need to follow this trend. This will devastate property affordability. Because Singapore is comming off such a low base rate now. Just a 1% rate increase will cut the amount able to be borrowed by 20 -30%. This will reflect with a corresponding price drop.

    4. Supply. The supply is 3 X higher than during the last property crash in 97. The supply issue compounds from 2010 onwards.

    5. DPS. This is Singapores subprime on steriods. If it wasnt a problem, the Govt would not have cut it off in 07. This hits the fan in 2010

    6.Historical data. The 15 year historical data shows Singapore property to be one of the worst performing asset classes in the world both from a yield and capital gain. Its been said here before that if you bought in 96 you were still underwater even at the peak of 07. The people here who talk about "missing the boat" are just dumb. The boat hasnt been built yet. The agent trolls who bought in 07 will be passing on negative equity to their children.

    7. Cultural. The kiasu culture will always mean that the Singapore market will vastly overshoot its value in an upswing. The controlled mindset of the masses by the media etc means they have a lemming mentality that doesnt know its falling off a cliff until they hit the rocks. Like now.

    8. Structural. The structure of the Singapore property market is inverse to most Western markets ie it is 80% public and 20% private. This will change over time as more HDBs are replaced with Condo apartments. There is no lack of space in Singapore just a lack of 1st world accommodation. As this changes over time the relative value of Condos will decrease.

    9. Affordability. Singapore has one of the worlds highest household debt levels because they are paying too much for housing. 8% of HDB owners are in default. The price of housing has been pushed up by speculation and poor economic management. Now the expat exodus has begun, the ability of the market to repay this debt is at risk.

    10. Global unstability. With a flatline western demand, China will struggle to fill its factories with workers. China faces an un certain future in a low growth world. This will mean more global tax resource will be focused on defence and security. Refer to point 1 which means even less money for building a better world.

    http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/...c,53263.0.html
    Wow, friend thanks for the post. Very useful

  18. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by firec
    Some bearish views from an expat:

    10 Good reasons to be a Singapore property bear

    1. The current "greenshoots" recovery is totally driven by taxpayers money. Not just cash reserves but mostly future tax income. This means for decades, Govts will not be able to spend on essential services and infrastructure. There has not been an upswing in production or demand just a inflow of borrowed taxpayers cash. So we have yet another mini bubble created by false liquidity without any new wealth creation.

    2. The global economy has stopped its downward spiral but it is still sick and many parts of it are still dying. It is most likely the West will flatline and stagnate for decades which will put the entire Singapore economy at risk. Just look at the last Q loss for NCL.

    3. While the economy may not yet hit its bottom, interest rates certainly have. The only way forward is up for interest rates as banks attract private equity to re-capitalise. Singapore will need to follow this trend. This will devastate property affordability. Because Singapore is comming off such a low base rate now. Just a 1% rate increase will cut the amount able to be borrowed by 20 -30%. This will reflect with a corresponding price drop.

    4. Supply. The supply is 3 X higher than during the last property crash in 97. The supply issue compounds from 2010 onwards.

    5. DPS. This is Singapores subprime on steriods. If it wasnt a problem, the Govt would not have cut it off in 07. This hits the fan in 2010

    6.Historical data. The 15 year historical data shows Singapore property to be one of the worst performing asset classes in the world both from a yield and capital gain. Its been said here before that if you bought in 96 you were still underwater even at the peak of 07. The people here who talk about "missing the boat" are just dumb. The boat hasnt been built yet. The agent trolls who bought in 07 will be passing on negative equity to their children.

    7. Cultural. The kiasu culture will always mean that the Singapore market will vastly overshoot its value in an upswing. The controlled mindset of the masses by the media etc means they have a lemming mentality that doesnt know its falling off a cliff until they hit the rocks. Like now.

    8. Structural. The structure of the Singapore property market is inverse to most Western markets ie it is 80% public and 20% private. This will change over time as more HDBs are replaced with Condo apartments. There is no lack of space in Singapore just a lack of 1st world accommodation. As this changes over time the relative value of Condos will decrease.

    9. Affordability. Singapore has one of the worlds highest household debt levels because they are paying too much for housing. 8% of HDB owners are in default. The price of housing has been pushed up by speculation and poor economic management. Now the expat exodus has begun, the ability of the market to repay this debt is at risk.

    10. Global unstability. With a flatline western demand, China will struggle to fill its factories with workers. China faces an un certain future in a low growth world. This will mean more global tax resource will be focused on defence and security. Refer to point 1 which means even less money for building a better world.

    http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/...c,53263.0.html
    Well done, might not be the best but better then Her World. Keep it up!

  19. #229
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    Thank for the refreshing piece of article coming from a different angle.

    Quote Originally Posted by firec
    Some bearish views from an expat:

    10 Good reasons to be a Singapore property bear

    1. The current "greenshoots" recovery is totally driven by taxpayers money. Not just cash reserves but mostly future tax income. This means for decades, Govts will not be able to spend on essential services and infrastructure. There has not been an upswing in production or demand just a inflow of borrowed taxpayers cash. So we have yet another mini bubble created by false liquidity without any new wealth creation.

    2. The global economy has stopped its downward spiral but it is still sick and many parts of it are still dying. It is most likely the West will flatline and stagnate for decades which will put the entire Singapore economy at risk. Just look at the last Q loss for NCL.

    3. While the economy may not yet hit its bottom, interest rates certainly have. The only way forward is up for interest rates as banks attract private equity to re-capitalise. Singapore will need to follow this trend. This will devastate property affordability. Because Singapore is comming off such a low base rate now. Just a 1% rate increase will cut the amount able to be borrowed by 20 -30%. This will reflect with a corresponding price drop.

    4. Supply. The supply is 3 X higher than during the last property crash in 97. The supply issue compounds from 2010 onwards.

    5. DPS. This is Singapores subprime on steriods. If it wasnt a problem, the Govt would not have cut it off in 07. This hits the fan in 2010

    6.Historical data. The 15 year historical data shows Singapore property to be one of the worst performing asset classes in the world both from a yield and capital gain. Its been said here before that if you bought in 96 you were still underwater even at the peak of 07. The people here who talk about "missing the boat" are just dumb. The boat hasnt been built yet. The agent trolls who bought in 07 will be passing on negative equity to their children.

    7. Cultural. The kiasu culture will always mean that the Singapore market will vastly overshoot its value in an upswing. The controlled mindset of the masses by the media etc means they have a lemming mentality that doesnt know its falling off a cliff until they hit the rocks. Like now.

    8. Structural. The structure of the Singapore property market is inverse to most Western markets ie it is 80% public and 20% private. This will change over time as more HDBs are replaced with Condo apartments. There is no lack of space in Singapore just a lack of 1st world accommodation. As this changes over time the relative value of Condos will decrease.

    9. Affordability. Singapore has one of the worlds highest household debt levels because they are paying too much for housing. 8% of HDB owners are in default. The price of housing has been pushed up by speculation and poor economic management. Now the expat exodus has begun, the ability of the market to repay this debt is at risk.

    10. Global unstability. With a flatline western demand, China will struggle to fill its factories with workers. China faces an un certain future in a low growth world. This will mean more global tax resource will be focused on defence and security. Refer to point 1 which means even less money for building a better world.

    http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/...c,53263.0.html

  20. #230
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    Default Quote from Daily Telegraph UK

    Technical analysis could foresee property falls



    By Tom Stevenson
    Published: 12:01AM GMT 04 Dec 2007


    Let's make the assumption that you are not like most investors, that you do not simply rely on what Bill at the golf club passed on to you from Bob who knows someone who's something in the City. Let's assume instead that you approach investment with a modicum of rationality. How do you decide what to buy?
    I'd be prepared to bet that you rely on what you take to be the "fundamentals". You make a judgment about a company's prospects, in the light of the wider economic background, assess its management's competence and honesty and then decide whether its prospects are sensibly reflected in its share price.

    If you think about it, this is a spectacular gamble. The odds against you assessing the value of a stock better than all the other investors who are trying to do exactly the same thing are pretty unfavourable. It is an expression of hope over experience.

    We all do it, though. Indeed you could argue that much of the investment industry - with its analysts, TV pundits and (ahem) newspaper columnists - is built around this improbable expectation.

    What far fewer of us do is listen to the market and the subconscious collective wisdom that is expressed in its myriad prices. Technical analysis, which is how people tap into the market's message through the patterns, echoes and rhymes from the past, remains a minority sport played by anoraks and cranks. Even most professional investors who look at the charts do so to confirm or time decisions arrived at from an analysis of the fundamentals.

    This looks increasingly odd to me. More and more it seems that studying how the world is, as shown in the charts, rather than how the fundamentals suggest it should be, is a better way of stacking the odds in your favour.

    This year, 2007, has been a better year for technicians than fundamentalists. As Colin McLean, managing director of SVM Asset Management and an authority on the emerging discipline of behavioural finance, pointed out in a talk this week, the message from Northern Rock's charts was clear well before the balloon actually went up.
    "The share price pattern was capturing the wisdom out there," he told a conference organised by Technical Analyst magazine.
    "Only a few sell-side analysts got it right. The technical picture captured in the first quarter a change in share behaviour and a clear link with what was going on in the US."

    McLean says investors are hobbled by a wide range of counter-productive behaviour characteristics. These include an aversion to losses, even to the point of running greater risks to recover them, excessive comfort in profits and an unwillingness to realise them, an anchoring of our views in past experience that may be irrelevant today, over-confidence and a focus on the near term and near at hand.

    What's amazing, given the psychological hard-wiring that helped us survive on the savanna but which seems to set us up so well for investment failure, is that an approach reliant on fundamental analysis ever makes money at all.

    There have been plenty of other examples this year where the charts have stolen a march on the fundamental analysis. I remember early in the year being hauled in to be told by John Duffield, founder of New Star Asset Management, why I had got it wrong about the commercial property market.

    He furnished me with all the fundamental reasons why property remained an attractive asset class - rising rents, strong demand etc - but a glance at the charts of the major real estate investors such as Hammerson and British Land told a very different story. The rest, as they say, has been history.

    Charts are a visual representation of mass psychology at work but they are very difficult to interpret, something that was brought home to me by one of the most readable books I've yet seen on technical analysis: Marber on Markets, published by Harriman House at (ouch!) £34.99.

    Brian Marber is the doyen of technical analysts, having been poring over charts ever since Kennedy was shot and I was born - a long time. Having started out drawing charts with a sharp pencil and a ruler in the pre-computer age, he also understands more about all those moving averages, stochastics, indicators and candlesticks than probably anyone else alive.
    Having devoted himself to the market's trends and patterns, its double tops and triangles and Bollinger bands for more than 40 years, he also passes my major test of whether someone has anything interesting to say about the market - he was working between 1972 and 1974, the most traumatic period in living memory for investors.

    The bear market of the early 1970s proved the worth of technical analysis to Marber: "1972/1974 was a classic bear market: a technical analyst would have to have been seriously stupid not to get it right. By contrast, fundamental analysts couldn't understand it, but then, they seldom can, so they couldn't avoid getting it wrong, constantly looking for value instead of cash."

    Marber's triumph was to call the bottom of the bear market on January 8 1975 and, like Cassandra, his punishment was not to be believed by anyone. "Naturally when I called its end I wasn't believed - a former Rothschild colleague remarking 'Brian Marber always was mad'. The index tripled in three months."

    As he concludes in one of the many pithy one-liners gracing this elegantly written book: "It is neither necessary nor possible to understand the market; the one essential is to come to terms with it."

    ================

  21. #231
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    Default

    Spotting A Market Bottom

    by Chris Seabury

    Stock market bottoms can be challenging to spot. And many times, investors think that they have found this point, only for the major averages to head even lower. The big question many have is: just how do you know when a market bottom has taken place? This requires the tools and indicators that have identified major market bottoms in the past, and an understanding of what they are, how they work and that each indicator must correlate a similar reading.

    Stock Market Bottoms
    Since the end of World War II, stock prices have generally bottomed six months into a recession. Once it becomes official that the country is in a recession, it is generally a rearview mirror indicator meaning that there have already been two or more quarters of negative GDP growth. On the other hand, when we are emerging out of a recession, we will not know until many months later. This is one of the reasons that it can be so confusing for investors to spot major bottoms taking place.

    Things to Watch for
    Just imagine how wonderful it would have been to buy stocks at bargain prices before major upward moves, such as January, 1975, August, 1982, or even March, 2003. All of those periods share some common patterns that should be observed in order to determine if the market is bottoming.

    The Double Bottom Pattern
    The double bottom pattern is considered to be one of the most reliable of all the technical patterns. In this pattern, the major market averages will hit a low on heavy volume, then bounce back up and then retest the previous low on light volume.

    The key is to watch and see how the averages trade when approaching that second low point. If the averages have a sizable break below the previous low, it is advisable to watch and see what happens. However, if the averages test that low point and then have some type of reversal, this could be a sign that a double bottom pattern is forming.

    A second area to watch is volume. This is the total amount of buying and selling that is occurring. Generally, heavy volume on up or down moves shows strong conviction from either the buyers or sellers. When you see the volume lighten up on the downward moves and increase substantially on the upward moves, there is a large amount of buying taking place. After a major market bottom has occurred, you will see this heavy volume accompanied by a strong upward move in the major market averages.

    Economic Numbers
    Generally, the stock market will bottom and start moving higher before you see it represented in economic numbers or headlines. In many cases, the more negative economic news headlines you see, the better. When the press represents the psychology of the moment, and we start to see consistent headlines showing how bad the economy is, it suggests that the sentiment of the crowd has become so negative that the vast majority have already moved out of their positions.

    A second number to pay attention to is the consumer confidence index. During and after market bottoms have occurred, you will see consumer spending and consumer confidence increase. When this happens, consumers are spending more money and corporate earnings are starting to rise. A third economic number to watch is purchasing managers' index, which measures the economic health of the manufacturing sector. When these two numbers have bottomed, then started to consistently rise for more than three months in a row, the manufacturing and service sectors are on the road to expansion once again.

    High Yield Bonds
    Another indicator to watch is the high yield bond spread. High yield bonds are the bonds issued by companies who have a high possibility of default. To be able to attract investors to loan them money, they have to offer a higher interest rate. When lending standards are becoming easier, you will see the amount of interest or the spreads on these bonds drop. When this happens, it is a sign that investors and banks are becoming more willing to take risk. This would signal that economic conditions are starting to improve.

    Copper Prices
    Copper prices are a good indicator as to how strong or weak the global economy is. This metal is used in economic expansion in products such as pipes, radiators, air conditioners, electronics and computers, to name a few. Watching to see if the price of copper has bottomed or has room to fall further will help determine the overall worldwide demand for the metal. When demand has increased, you will start to see prices rise; when demand is falling, prices will follow.

    Look for copper prices to finish declining and start to move in a similar upward pattern with the financial markets. This would be a real-time signal that manufacturers and home builders are seeing their businesses pick up. To keep up with the increases in demand, they have to use more copper, causing the price to rise.

    The Bottom Line
    Market bottoms are accompanied by a variety of factors, such as high amounts of fear, a decrease in the volume on downward moves, a large increase in the volume on upward moves, double bottom patterns, improving economic numbers, the spread on high yield bonds narrowing and an increase in copper prices. However, it is important to remember that the financial markets look forward at least six months prior to any real improvement in the economic numbers. By using all of the indicators together, you have the key to spotting a market bottom.

  22. #232
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,069

    Default Dead cats don't bounce; they lie on the floor getting smelly

    Quote from Marber:

    The most egregious human failing to extrapolation of the trend: let any trend go on long enough and everyone expect the odd chartist (and I do mean odd) refuses to believe it will ever change. Accordingly, after, often long after the bear market has actually grounded, they all carry on as before, standing aside or selling short.

    I am certain you've all heard of dead cat bounce; what the early months of a major upswing are inevitably called by the "experts" pontificating in newspaper, brokers' offices and on TV. Experts don't have to be right, of course, merely to have sound, usually fundamental and invariably intellectual reasons when they have been getting it wrong.

    As for the bouncing dead cat, eventually those same experts who have been pronouncing its repeated death realize that particular pussy isn't bouncing but pouncing:moggy transmogrified into bull. Dead cats don't bounce; they lie on the floor getting smelly.

    Sometimes, indeed, oft times, I wish the experts would lie down with them. If you lie down with dogs you get fleas, that's for sure, but with dead cats, experts have an advantage: most already have fleas.

    Traders can't believe their bad luck when seeing price rise for a change. They just keep selling short. Finally, however, when they have cut their last losses on short positions and graduated to long ones, a trading mentality prevails; short-term long positions are the order of the day/week/month.

    That is the main reason why the market keeps on going up; a profit is snatched; "I'll buy on the fall" is the cry. Do you think the market doesn't know that's what they're trying to do ? Of course it does; the market knows everything, despite having no eyes, ears or brain.

    What the market does have is an eloquent mouth and it pays to listen to what it saying, not tell it what it ought to do. The market can't hear what experts are saying is right for it to do: it doesn't have morals; and it doesn't care. It does what it wants; and when it wants to do it.

  23. #233
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    41

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    Well done, might not be the best but better then Her World. Keep it up!
    Yeah!! this is refreshing.. its better than HER WORLD!!!..hahahaha.. thats a funny one dude...

  24. #234
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    164

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wqmai
    I do agree that property in the long run is a good hedge against inflation. If you can afford the 20% downpayment, why not?
    E.g. D15's freehold studio appartment is about $460k. Even if the price continue to drop, how much it can drop? Almost impossible to drop to $350k.

    Buy and rent out. People now asking for abt $2000 per mth rental. You just ask for $1500, sure got taker. $1,500 sld be enough for monthly installment and maintenance fee. Even 10 yrs later, you sell back at the same price as you bought, you are still gaining.
    No need wait for the bottom, you may not see it. E.g. During the recent stock run-up, my friend was waiting for the stock market to bottom at STI 1200. Wait and wait and in the end, he enter the market at about STI 2200 points.

    The last bottom in end 2001 or 2002, STI is abt 1200. Since this recession is worst than 2001, why the stock market bottom at 1400 instead of 1200? So why should the property bottom at pre-2005 prices?

    I felt that if you really wanted to invest in a property, now should be a good time. If property prices drop, just hang on. Or you want to enter when the property prices is much higher like my friend who wait until STI 1200 is really not achieveable then he entered at STI 2200?

    To each his own.

    I like what you says. This is what I have been telling people all the while.

  25. #235
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    41

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    which condo is this?
    Doesn't look like a condo to me... it appears to be The Peak (DBSS), Design build and sell scheme from HDB...unless of course it is HDB Condo, without facilities and swimming pool...

  26. #236
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Begbie
    Yeah!! this is refreshing.. its better than HER WORLD!!!..hahahaha.. thats a funny one dude...
    Nobody reads Her World here? Or you prefer Men's Health...
    I'm a potential buyer.

  27. #237
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    407

    Default

    Mr Kiat, trust me. The more you spam the more ppl won't be reading your postings.

    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    Quote from Marber:

    The most egregious human failing to extrapolation of the trend: let any trend go on long enough and everyone expect the odd chartist (and I do mean odd) refuses to believe it will ever change. Accordingly, after, often long after the bear market has actually grounded, they all carry on as before, standing aside or selling short.

    I am certain you've all heard of dead cat bounce; what the early months of a major upswing are inevitably called by the "experts" pontificating in newspaper, brokers' offices and on TV. Experts don't have to be right, of course, merely to have sound, usually fundamental and invariably intellectual reasons when they have been getting it wrong.

    As for the bouncing dead cat, eventually those same experts who have been pronouncing its repeated death realize that particular pussy isn't bouncing but pouncing:moggy transmogrified into bull. Dead cats don't bounce; they lie on the floor getting smelly.

    Sometimes, indeed, oft times, I wish the experts would lie down with them. If you lie down with dogs you get fleas, that's for sure, but with dead cats, experts have an advantage: most already have fleas.

    Traders can't believe their bad luck when seeing price rise for a change. They just keep selling short. Finally, however, when they have cut their last losses on short positions and graduated to long ones, a trading mentality prevails; short-term long positions are the order of the day/week/month.

    That is the main reason why the market keeps on going up; a profit is snatched; "I'll buy on the fall" is the cry. Do you think the market doesn't know that's what they're trying to do ? Of course it does; the market knows everything, despite having no eyes, ears or brain.

    What the market does have is an eloquent mouth and it pays to listen to what it saying, not tell it what it ought to do. The market can't hear what experts are saying is right for it to do: it doesn't have morals; and it doesn't care. It does what it wants; and when it wants to do it.

  28. #238
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    49

    Default

    Thanks for the good article. I learnt something today reading this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    Spotting A Market Bottom

    by Chris Seabury

    Stock market bottoms can be challenging to spot. And many times, investors think that they have found this point, only for the major averages to head even lower. The big question many have is: just how do you know when a market bottom has taken place? This requires the tools and indicators that have identified major market bottoms in the past, and an understanding of what they are, how they work and that each indicator must correlate a similar reading.

    Stock Market Bottoms
    Since the end of World War II, stock prices have generally bottomed six months into a recession. Once it becomes official that the country is in a recession, it is generally a rearview mirror indicator meaning that there have already been two or more quarters of negative GDP growth. On the other hand, when we are emerging out of a recession, we will not know until many months later. This is one of the reasons that it can be so confusing for investors to spot major bottoms taking place.

    Things to Watch for
    Just imagine how wonderful it would have been to buy stocks at bargain prices before major upward moves, such as January, 1975, August, 1982, or even March, 2003. All of those periods share some common patterns that should be observed in order to determine if the market is bottoming.

    The Double Bottom Pattern
    The double bottom pattern is considered to be one of the most reliable of all the technical patterns. In this pattern, the major market averages will hit a low on heavy volume, then bounce back up and then retest the previous low on light volume.

    The key is to watch and see how the averages trade when approaching that second low point. If the averages have a sizable break below the previous low, it is advisable to watch and see what happens. However, if the averages test that low point and then have some type of reversal, this could be a sign that a double bottom pattern is forming.

    A second area to watch is volume. This is the total amount of buying and selling that is occurring. Generally, heavy volume on up or down moves shows strong conviction from either the buyers or sellers. When you see the volume lighten up on the downward moves and increase substantially on the upward moves, there is a large amount of buying taking place. After a major market bottom has occurred, you will see this heavy volume accompanied by a strong upward move in the major market averages.

    Economic Numbers
    Generally, the stock market will bottom and start moving higher before you see it represented in economic numbers or headlines. In many cases, the more negative economic news headlines you see, the better. When the press represents the psychology of the moment, and we start to see consistent headlines showing how bad the economy is, it suggests that the sentiment of the crowd has become so negative that the vast majority have already moved out of their positions.

    A second number to pay attention to is the consumer confidence index. During and after market bottoms have occurred, you will see consumer spending and consumer confidence increase. When this happens, consumers are spending more money and corporate earnings are starting to rise. A third economic number to watch is purchasing managers' index, which measures the economic health of the manufacturing sector. When these two numbers have bottomed, then started to consistently rise for more than three months in a row, the manufacturing and service sectors are on the road to expansion once again.

    High Yield Bonds
    Another indicator to watch is the high yield bond spread. High yield bonds are the bonds issued by companies who have a high possibility of default. To be able to attract investors to loan them money, they have to offer a higher interest rate. When lending standards are becoming easier, you will see the amount of interest or the spreads on these bonds drop. When this happens, it is a sign that investors and banks are becoming more willing to take risk. This would signal that economic conditions are starting to improve.

    Copper Prices
    Copper prices are a good indicator as to how strong or weak the global economy is. This metal is used in economic expansion in products such as pipes, radiators, air conditioners, electronics and computers, to name a few. Watching to see if the price of copper has bottomed or has room to fall further will help determine the overall worldwide demand for the metal. When demand has increased, you will start to see prices rise; when demand is falling, prices will follow.

    Look for copper prices to finish declining and start to move in a similar upward pattern with the financial markets. This would be a real-time signal that manufacturers and home builders are seeing their businesses pick up. To keep up with the increases in demand, they have to use more copper, causing the price to rise.

    The Bottom Line
    Market bottoms are accompanied by a variety of factors, such as high amounts of fear, a decrease in the volume on downward moves, a large increase in the volume on upward moves, double bottom patterns, improving economic numbers, the spread on high yield bonds narrowing and an increase in copper prices. However, it is important to remember that the financial markets look forward at least six months prior to any real improvement in the economic numbers. By using all of the indicators together, you have the key to spotting a market bottom.

  29. #239
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by apple3
    Mr Kiat, trust me. The more you spam the more ppl won't be reading your postings.
    Its quite clear he is still trying to talk up the market. Justifying all his arguments with reports and postings from all over the world. Its quite funny actually. I have never heard any body invest/ speculate in properties based on TA for the simple reasons its not a liquid market and most times, its also regulated, influenced by governmental policies.

    Actually its quite refreshing, refreshingly stupid I dare say, hahaha

  30. #240
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    377

    Default

    i'm a property bear myself, but re: talking excessively up/down the market, for god's sake look in the mirror, you're doing that too!

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