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Thread: [email protected] (D13, 99 years Leasehold, Fraser Centrepoint)

  1. #61
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    D13 location is littered with cemetries, graves and crematoriums

  2. #62
    I sell Cheese Pie

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    And if you ever wonder why some "landed" properties are selling so cheap, you can be sure that the developer has bought very, very cheap "sewage land" from the govt. Make sure you check out the sewage system b4 you commit or else you are buying a house full of shit

    In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if you unearth several manholes in very close vicinity to your property. T junctions, cemeteries or prayer houses behind the property, sewage points. suicide or murder in the house.... all account for big no nos in the purchase. Donch regret.... make sure you do your due diligence first.

  3. #63
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    it is Sime Rd, not Siam Rd. i used to live along University Rd. The environment in that area is very nice but driving past Sime Rd at nite really gives one the creeps with many hauntings there over the years.
    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    ever drive thru Kheam hock rd ? right thru to Siam rd? look at the amount of nice big houses there ..with the grave within 100 m ....

    i almost bought a semi D there in 2006 ... should have ... plans been made to exume the cemetery ..and the landed houses there are now worth alot more than when i saw them in 2006

  4. #64
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    Just got this invite:

    Estimated Price for 1 and 2 bedroom from about $400k ($960psf?)
    Estimated Price for 3 and 4 bedrooom from about $940k ($1000psf?)

    IF this project proves to be a sellout, and shows people are willing to pay $1000psf for 99 year cemetary land, i'm going to seriously consider migrating. I don't want to bring up my kids in a nation of morons - if i did, i would much rather bring them up in the US - at least i can subscribe to playboy there cheap.

    One questions for the lau chiaus and gurus: Does the law of relativity apply to private property in Singapore? If so and compared to cemetary condos, wouldn't prime orchard props be now worth about $50,000psf?

  5. #65
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    with developers like FEO pricing suburban projects like hillvista at 9xx to 1kpsf, how do u apply theory of relativity? That being said it shud be gd news for residents in D1
    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    Just got this invite:

    Estimated Price for 1 and 2 bedroom from about $400k ($960psf?)
    Estimated Price for 3 and 4 bedrooom from about $940k ($1000psf?)

    IF this project proves to be a sellout, and shows people are willing to pay $1000psf for 99 year cemetary land, i'm going to seriously consider migrating. I don't want to bring up my kids in a nation of morons - if i did, i would much rather bring them up in the US - at least i can subscribe to playboy there cheap.

    One questions for the lau chiaus and gurus: Does the law of relativity apply to private property in Singapore? If so and compared to cemetary condos, wouldn't prime orchard props be now worth about $50,000psf?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    with developers like FEO pricing suburban projects like hillvista at 9xx to 1kpsf, how do u apply theory of relativity? That being said it shud be gd news for residents in D1
    If cemetary condos are priced at $1kpsf, then hillvista should be at $5kpsf, Sembawang about $2kpsf, D15 about $7kpsf etc etc

    $1kpsf for cemetary land. sheesh

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    Just got this invite:

    Estimated Price for 1 and 2 bedroom from about $400k ($960psf?)
    Estimated Price for 3 and 4 bedrooom from about $940k ($1000psf?)

    IF this project proves to be a sellout, and shows people are willing to pay $1000psf for 99 year cemetary land, i'm going to seriously consider migrating. I don't want to bring up my kids in a nation of morons - if i did, i would much rather bring them up in the US - at least i can subscribe to playboy there cheap.

    One questions for the lau chiaus and gurus: Does the law of relativity apply to private property in Singapore? If so and compared to cemetary condos, wouldn't prime orchard props be now worth about $50,000psf?
    haha this is already a nation of morons when they repeatedly cast their votes for the gang in white ~

  8. #68
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    Default wat is the fair price?

    What is the fair price to purchase for the 99LH Woodleigh new launch?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by yokoosi
    What is the fair price to purchase for the 99LH Woodleigh new launch?
    Hahaha.... it really depends on which school of thought you subscribe to! Can be as low as $200psf as some forumers suggest, or as high as $1000psf!

    gfoo, actually I am surprised that the price they quoted you is so high. So far the indicative pricing I got from the ERA agents (which is the marketing agency for this project) is between $750psf to $830psf for all 2bedders to 4bedders, which works out to about $6xxK for a 2-bedder and $7xxK to $8xxK for a 3-bedder.

    Honestly, I think we have all got past the cemetary land issue. In the first place, Singapore being small as it is, which area does not have a cemetary? And in the second place, the cemetary is across the road and not on this plot. And in the third place, the cemetary has been cleared and it is now Woodleigh Park. So it is really caveat emptor. As long as the buyer is comfortable with this, there is really nothing much to shout about. The same thing can be said about reclaimed land too. Marina is on reclaimed land. Huge parts of the East Coast is on reclaimed land. Pandan and Teban Gardens is on reclaimed land. Singapore being small as it is, land is a definitely a scarce resource. At the end of the day, it is a willing buyer vs a willing seller. Who is to call the buyers morons at the end of the day? It is all a matter of perspective.

    Whilst everyone can appreciate the bay-view of the Sail, but not every family can afford the psf pricing. At the end of the day, as long as the unit is for self-stay, I do not think that paying $7xxpsf in D13 is insane. For $850K, one can get a decent sized 3-bedder at about 1150sqft. With 3 decent sized bedrooms, there is adequate space for the family, there is a nice nursery for the baby, ample storage space for all the toys, and probably also space for that live-in domestic helper, all at the city fringe. But for $850k in D1 or D9, what one gets is probably a studio or a 2-bedder. With cramped living space, livability and quality of life gets compromised. After all, it is difficult to appreciate the vast gardens, the proximity to Orchard, when a family of 3/4 is cramped side by side in a mousehole. But of course, if money is never a concern, or the party involved does not mind being highly leveraged for that potential upside, then I suppose the sky is the limit right? If that case, maybe a GCB at D9 might be the best alternative.

    My 2 cents. Hope I didn't offend any party with the above posting. If I did, pls accept my sincere apologies.

  10. #70
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    Red face

    if u are migrating, can you do us singaporeans a favor by selling ur sail at 500psf to me? we definitely need to do our utmost to bring people to their senses!


    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    If cemetary condos are priced at $1kpsf, then hillvista should be at $5kpsf, Sembawang about $2kpsf, D15 about $7kpsf etc etc

    $1kpsf for cemetary land. sheesh

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by KT_Lim
    if u are migrating, can you do us singaporeans a favor by selling ur sail at 500psf to me? we definitely need to do our utmost to bring people to their senses!
    sure thing mate - i'll put you on a really long waiting list

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by new2mondrian
    Hahaha.... it really depends on which school of thought you subscribe to! Can be as low as $200psf as some forumers suggest, or as high as $1000psf!

    gfoo, actually I am surprised that the price they quoted you is so high. So far the indicative pricing I got from the ERA agents (which is the marketing agency for this project) is between $750psf to $830psf for all 2bedders to 4bedders, which works out to about $6xxK for a 2-bedder and $7xxK to $8xxK for a 3-bedder.

    Honestly, I think we have all got past the cemetary land issue. In the first place, Singapore being small as it is, which area does not have a cemetary? And in the second place, the cemetary is across the road and not on this plot. And in the third place, the cemetary has been cleared and it is now Woodleigh Park. So it is really caveat emptor. As long as the buyer is comfortable with this, there is really nothing much to shout about. The same thing can be said about reclaimed land too. Marina is on reclaimed land. Huge parts of the East Coast is on reclaimed land. Pandan and Teban Gardens is on reclaimed land. Singapore being small as it is, land is a definitely a scarce resource. At the end of the day, it is a willing buyer vs a willing seller. Who is to call the buyers morons at the end of the day? It is all a matter of perspective.

    Whilst everyone can appreciate the bay-view of the Sail, but not every family can afford the psf pricing. At the end of the day, as long as the unit is for self-stay, I do not think that paying $7xxpsf in D13 is insane. For $850K, one can get a decent sized 3-bedder at about 1150sqft. With 3 decent sized bedrooms, there is adequate space for the family, there is a nice nursery for the baby, ample storage space for all the toys, and probably also space for that live-in domestic helper, all at the city fringe. But for $850k in D1 or D9, what one gets is probably a studio or a 2-bedder. With cramped living space, livability and quality of life gets compromised. After all, it is difficult to appreciate the vast gardens, the proximity to Orchard, when a family of 3/4 is cramped side by side in a mousehole. But of course, if money is never a concern, or the party involved does not mind being highly leveraged for that potential upside, then I suppose the sky is the limit right? If that case, maybe a GCB at D9 might be the best alternative.

    My 2 cents. Hope I didn't offend any party with the above posting. If I did, pls accept my sincere apologies.
    Your argument is fair and a very good one. Here's my humble flip side of the coin.

    I'm not comparing woodleigh to orchard or marina bay, but to other city fringe properties. D15 OA in 1Q was going for $850psf, it's FH, within walking distance to the upcoming MRT, surrounded by amenities and malls. Other condos pre run-up in D15 were priced at $650-$750. Over at D5, prices in 1Q were sub $600psf. River Valley/Tanglin was about $1k.

    My point is that the recent run up defies not only fundamentals and pricing benchmarks, but human decency as well when developers have this 'it's green shoots, so let's rip 'em and run' mentality.

    True that every part of Singapore was once a cemetary - even Sentosa Cove sits on top a rumored WW2 killing field, ion orchard sits on an 1800s cemetary etc. But modern cemetaries like Bishan was given a much longer vesting period before pte and landed properties were put up for planning. Biddadari was cleared starting 2001 and completed in 2006.

    My point as always, is pricing. Bishan started in the mid 80s really cheap due to the cemetary issue, and only started its run up in the 90s. but almost 2 decades separated the exhumation and when the first HDB families moved in. Woodleigh has barely seen a few years.

    No doubt i'm gonna get flamed for minding my own business and i don't know why i bother. But potential buyers should do comparison studies first, and not just jump in just because it fits a budget. because at the end of the day, entry prices dictate the manner in which you exit.

  13. #73
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    Hmm ... for most people, if budget is not one of the more important factor for consideration (for owner-buyer) then wonder wat would it be?

    Your intention may be good but not nec. every buyer is buying with the mentality of invest with 'entry' & 'exit'.

    But u're rite to say that buyers should still shop around & compare the various locations .. this of cuz makes sense & even if with budget oso should practise that. Only thing is if the potential really really likes a place so much or so used to a vicinity, then buyer is not so logical liao lor ... look at the total sales in May, oso doesn't appear to be logical rt ..

    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    No doubt i'm gonna get flamed for minding my own business and i don't know why i bother. But potential buyers should do comparison studies first, and not just jump in just because it fits a budget. because at the end of the day, entry prices dictate the manner in which you exit.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    Your argument is fair and a very good one. Here's my humble flip side of the coin.

    I'm not comparing woodleigh to orchard or marina bay, but to other city fringe properties. D15 OA in 1Q was going for $850psf, it's FH, within walking distance to the upcoming MRT, surrounded by amenities and malls. Other condos pre run-up in D15 were priced at $650-$750. Over at D5, prices in 1Q were sub $600psf. River Valley/Tanglin was about $1k.

    My point is that the recent run up defies not only fundamentals and pricing benchmarks, but human decency as well when developers have this 'it's green shoots, so let's rip 'em and run' mentality.
    In that case, do you think it is a mistake for HDB to launch DBSS HDB flats priced from 500-700k at AMK, TPY, Boon Keng, Simei etc? Strangely, the buyers of all these glorified HDBs do not even care about whether got greens shoots or market is going to crash next year or not. And they are so excited after getting a 600k HDB. So getting a condo at Potong Pasir at 700k does not sound too illogical isn't it?

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    In that case, do you think it is a mistake for HDB to launch DBSS HDB flats priced from 500-700k at AMK, TPY, Boon Keng, Simei etc? Strangely, the buyers of all these glorified HDBs do not even care about whether got greens shoots or market is going to crash next year or not. And they are so excited after getting a 600k HDB. So getting a condo at Potong Pasir at 700k does not sound too illogical isn't it?
    there will always be buyers, comfortably leveraged or ridiculously overstretched, at different price tiers.

    hdb buyers r most likely 1st time home owners, so sometimes emotion may get the better of reason

  16. #76
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    developers in that area sometimes use Boon Keng DBSS as comparison as a benchmark for pricing. They would always say "if DBSS can charge so much for public housing, why not pay slightly more for a condo in the vicinity..."


    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    In that case, do you think it is a mistake for HDB to launch DBSS HDB flats priced from 500-700k at AMK, TPY, Boon Keng, Simei etc? Strangely, the buyers of all these glorified HDBs do not even care about whether got greens shoots or market is going to crash next year or not. And they are so excited after getting a 600k HDB. So getting a condo at Potong Pasir at 700k does not sound too illogical isn't it?

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    Your argument is fair and a very good one. Here's my humble flip side of the coin.

    I'm not comparing woodleigh to orchard or marina bay, but to other city fringe properties. D15 OA in 1Q was going for $850psf, it's FH, within walking distance to the upcoming MRT, surrounded by amenities and malls. Other condos pre run-up in D15 were priced at $650-$750. Over at D5, prices in 1Q were sub $600psf. River Valley/Tanglin was about $1k.

    My point is that the recent run up defies not only fundamentals and pricing benchmarks, but human decency as well when developers have this 'it's green shoots, so let's rip 'em and run' mentality.

    True that every part of Singapore was once a cemetary - even Sentosa Cove sits on top a rumored WW2 killing field, ion orchard sits on an 1800s cemetary etc. But modern cemetaries like Bishan was given a much longer vesting period before pte and landed properties were put up for planning. Biddadari was cleared starting 2001 and completed in 2006.

    My point as always, is pricing. Bishan started in the mid 80s really cheap due to the cemetary issue, and only started its run up in the 90s. but almost 2 decades separated the exhumation and when the first HDB families moved in. Woodleigh has barely seen a few years.

    No doubt i'm gonna get flamed for minding my own business and i don't know why i bother. But potential buyers should do comparison studies first, and not just jump in just because it fits a budget. because at the end of the day, entry prices dictate the manner in which you exit.
    Actually I have always appreciated your insights, and your knowledge of the local property market. I do agree that the recent run-up in pricing is not sustainable, and from a technical standpoint, a correction has to occur, esp since the underlying fault lines which led to this sub-prime/demand destruction/recession crisis still exists. But market can be irrational, since it is dictated by human behaviour. And in this part of the world, there is still a lot of liquidity in the system, largely due to years of high savings and our proximity to Asian countries such as China/Malaysia/Indonesia where old wealth exists and Singapore is regarded as a safe haven. Hence this may cushion the impact of the eventual correction. How far and how deep and how long any correction can happen, it is up to the market to eventually decide. No one ever has the benefit of hindsight.

    My point of view is that should a property be purchased for self-stay, affordability and sustainability are the principal issues. Affordability requires one to have the means, even when one suffers a financial setback (such as retrenchment, paycut, illness), to continue maintaining the property and not let it be put up for a forced sale. And if one purchases a $800K mass-market property, in the event of a 25% correction, the book-loss will be capped at $200k, and there is always a natural HDB price support level for mass-market properties. But if one purchases a $1.5M property in the prime district, the book-loss can be easily $300-400K. It is a very different risk level altogether.

    Sustainability means that the property is suited for one's lifestyle, and one can be happy living in it for at least the medium term. To a yuppie or a childless couple, staying in a studio along Oxley or at the Icon or Sail may be a great option. There are pubs below, great shopping, proximity to the workplace and of course the lure of staying next to a casino where there is entertainment round the clock. But to a family with children, needs become different. Then factors such as adequate living space for the children to romp around, ample storage for toys and plenty of bookshelves, a tranquil environment (hopefully not next to the scintillating lights of Orchard or a casino in my case), proximity to good schools or even a good public library such that the child can cultivate a reading habit all come into play. And should the unit be purchased for self-stay and is affordable and sustainable, then the entry price will not be of the principal concern since the owner is able to hold it through various property cycles.

    The above does not just relate to the Woodleigh Close launch, but across all properties in general. I am a firm believer of being comfortably leveraged. Coming back to D13, Potong Pasir is really not suited to people which wish to flip it for a quick gain, as I mentioned before in other D13 threads. One needs to be able to hold it over the medium to long term to see the area developed. But it is not without its charm and its potential. And of course, for all property investors and buyers out there, I toally agree that it is key to do comparison studies at the end of the day.

  18. #78
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    you have also failed to point out what the future population of singapore is going to be like in 10 years time. I can safely say that our rate of influx of foreigners and population growth is definitely greater than growth in number of housing and please bear in mind that the land size is more or less a fixed constraint while population will continue to expand. There will come a time when Singapore will face a gross housing shortage like london and prices will reach fever pitch. it is not too hard to imagine that happening as singapore has yet to become a full blown cosmopolitan city. Also remember that we are much smaller than the size of london....


    Quote Originally Posted by new2mondrian
    Actually I have always appreciated your insights, and your knowledge of the local property market. I do agree that the recent run-up in pricing is not sustainable, and from a technical standpoint, a correction has to occur, esp since the underlying fault lines which led to this sub-prime/demand destruction/recession crisis still exists. But market can be irrational, since it is dictated by human behaviour. And in this part of the world, there is still a lot of liquidity in the system, largely due to years of high savings and our proximity to Asian countries such as China/Malaysia/Indonesia where old wealth exists and Singapore is regarded as a safe haven. Hence this may cushion the impact of the eventual correction. How far and how deep and how long any correction can happen, it is up to the market to eventually decide. No one ever has the benefit of hindsight.

    My point of view is that should a property be purchased for self-stay, affordability and sustainability are the principal issues. Affordability requires one to have the means, even when one suffers a financial setback (such as retrenchment, paycut, illness), to continue maintaining the property and not let it be put up for a forced sale. And if one purchases a $800K mass-market property, in the event of a 25% correction, the book-loss will be capped at $200k, and there is always a natural HDB price support level for mass-market properties. But if one purchases a $1.5M property in the prime district, the book-loss can be easily $300-400K. It is a very different risk level altogether.

    Sustainability means that the property is suited for one's lifestyle, and one can be happy living in it for at least the medium term. To a yuppie or a childless couple, staying in a studio along Oxley or at the Icon or Sail may be a great option. There are pubs below, great shopping, proximity to the workplace and of course the lure of staying next to a casino where there is entertainment round the clock. But to a family with children, needs become different. Then factors such as adequate living space for the children to romp around, ample storage for toys and plenty of bookshelves, a tranquil environment (hopefully not next to the scintillating lights of Orchard or a casino in my case), proximity to good schools or even a good public library such that the child can cultivate a reading habit all come into play. And should the unit be purchased for self-stay and is affordable and sustainable, then the entry price will not be of the principal concern since the owner is able to hold it through various property cycles.

    The above does not just relate to the Woodleigh Close launch, but across all properties in general. I am a firm believer of being comfortably leveraged. Coming back to D13, Potong Pasir is really not suited to people which wish to flip it for a quick gain, as I mentioned before in other D13 threads. One needs to be able to hold it over the medium to long term to see the area developed. But it is not without its charm and its potential. And of course, for all property investors and buyers out there, I toally agree that it is key to do comparison studies at the end of the day.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    If cemetary condos are priced at $1kpsf, then hillvista should be at $5kpsf, Sembawang about $2kpsf, D15 about $7kpsf etc etc

    $1kpsf for cemetary land. sheesh
    Geylang should be priced about $8k psf

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    you have also failed to point out what the future population of singapore is going to be like in 10 years time. I can safely say that our rate of influx of foreigners and population growth is definitely greater than growth in number of housing and please bear in mind that the land size is more or less a fixed constraint while population will continue to expand. There will come a time when Singapore will face a gross housing shortage like london and prices will reach fever pitch. it is not too hard to imagine that happening as singapore has yet to become a full blown cosmopolitan city. Also remember that we are much smaller than the size of london....
    I remember paying close to SGD200 per day for a really crappy room in a run down service apt just last year

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