Trevista (D12, 99 years leasehold, NTUC Choice Homes)

[xebay11]

Not if you want a new condo in that area that you are familar with and especially near a MRT.

There are reasons why people are prepared to pay more $psf for new units. Older apartments always have some waterproofing issues, leakage, wall cracks, rusts etc. Also larger apartments 10 years ago have not good design in layout. Too many walls and not bright because of small windows. Now we have open lounge, open kitchen, dry kitchen, wet kitchen and balconies, proper aircon ledge with louvers. Even master bathrooms are see-thru. All these makes the project look better.

There are not too many 30 or 40 years old building apartments in S'pore. In fact not many buildings (apart from structure) are built to last that long because of our humid/hot weather. Check out PearlBank apartment oneof the earlier LH condos in S'pore. Now only $600psf

Singapore is a strange place. The prices for condo (space above land) depreciates with age while the land appreciates.

Aiya older means 5-10 yrs ago lah. Designs still quite decent and comparable to new units.

[andy]

Aiya older means 5-10 yrs ago lah. Designs still quite decent and comparable to new units.

You get what you pay for. There is no magic. Market gain 20% new units and older units gain also 20%. Market drops 20%, both new and old unit drop by same %. Boils down to risk profile of buyers.

Yet to see older units gain or and drop less.

[teddybear]

I only know that those launched after 2003 got very poor design and layout - big big planter areas, big big bay windows etc. Never heard that those 10 years old have no good design (in fact those launched before 2003 are more space efficient!). As to leakage, wall cracks etc, it depends on the project. Some projects by big name also heard to have such problems, but so soon as to be 10 years old (usually after 15 years?).
"Even master bathrooms are see-thru" is better? Have dry kitchen is better? Sorry, may be I am more conservative as I found these to be NO-no for me.
Many of the newer condos have full ceiling to floor facade as wall. Not sure how long these can long before they start smashing? Scare scare if we consider the durability of glass.

Not if you want a new condo in that area that you are familar with and especially near a MRT.

There are reasons why people are prepared to pay more $psf for new units. Older apartments always have some waterproofing issues, leakage, wall cracks, rusts etc. Also larger apartments 10 years ago have not good design in layout. Too many walls and not bright because of small windows. Now we have open lounge, open kitchen, dry kitchen, wet kitchen and balconies, proper aircon ledge with louvers. Even master bathrooms are see-thru. All these makes the project look better.

There are not too many 30 or 40 years old building apartments in S'pore. In fact not many buildings (apart from structure) are built to last that long because of our humid/hot weather. Check out PearlBank apartment oneof the earlier LH condos in S'pore. Now only $600psf

Singapore is a strange place. The prices for condo (space above land) depreciates with age while the land appreciates.

[andy]

I only know that those launched after 2003 got very poor design and layout - big big planter areas, big big bay windows etc.

Correct. But let's not confuse developer's desire to maximize selling area versus floorplan design for a given GFA. Older units are bigger cos many planter/windows/air con not counted. Units built before 2000 generally have about 20% more floor area. But so far never heard of tenants paying more for older units for a given floor area.

[amk]

Correct. But let's not confuse developer's desire to maximize selling area versus floorplan design for a given GFA.

This is the objective discussion I'd like to see.

Btw I agree we should not dismiss 100% the design elements of balcony/etc. It brings out light and natural ventilation to the unit. It's not all bad. The fact that developers abuse it is a different matter.

Many 10y old condos are indeed very good in space and probably still structurally sound. These could be good value. However there is this huge stigma of "new vs used" in Singporean's mindset. There is always this premium for new.

[xebay11]

I only know that those launched after 2003 got very poor design and layout - big big planter areas, big big bay windows etc. Never heard that those 10 years old have no good design (in fact those launched before 2003 are more space efficient!). As to leakage, wall cracks etc, it depends on the project. Some projects by big name also heard to have such problems, but so soon as to be 10 years old (usually after 15 years?).
"Even master bathrooms are see-thru" is better? Have dry kitchen is better? Sorry, may be I am more conservative as I found these to be NO-no for me.
Many of the newer condos have full ceiling to floor facade as wall. Not sure how long these can long before they start smashing? Scare scare if we consider the durability of glass.

Yeah all new condos so much glass, only good if you have zero noon sun facing or else, even a angled noon sun facing makes the house scorching hot, like sleeping in the open, very unliavble if you ask me.....this is where I think HDBs are much better.

[cheerful]

If concrete wall kena sunlight lagi hotter!! It's more dependent on the direction .. if facing afternoon sun, new or old condos all the same but concrete walls retain heat betta bah ...

Yeah all new condos so much glass, only good if you have zero noon sun facing or else, even a angled noon sun facing makes the house scorching hot, like sleeping in the open, very unliavble if you ask me.....this is where I think HDBs are much better.

[xebay11]

If concrete wall kena sunlight lagi hotter!! It's more dependent on the direction .. if facing afternoon sun, new or old condos all the same but concrete walls retain heat betta bah ...

Concrete walls retain the heat more, true, but glass lets in the heat at full blast and also warms up the concrete floor, so double whammy.

[sleek]

Concrete walls retain the heat more, true, but glass lets in the heat at full blast and also warms up the concrete floor, so double whammy.

That's why a lot of new projects are N-S facing. If can't avoid E-W, facing E will be better as its the afternoon Sun that's heats up the home.

[xebay11]

That's why a lot of new projects are N-S facing. If can't avoid E-W, facing E will be better as its the afternoon Sun that's heats up the home.

Many homes NS facing but the noon sun now comes from NW, still bloody hot if you live in glass house.

[XB]

a question not related to property - why west sun hotter than morning sun? any physical/environmental reasoning?

That's why a lot of new projects are N-S facing. If can't avoid E-W, facing E will be better as its the afternoon Sun that's heats up the home.

[sleek]

a question not related to property - why west sun hotter than morning sun? any physical/environmental reasoning?

Simply because the home got time to cool down for the rest of the afternoon while the Sun travers to West.

[Honesty]

Concrete walls retain the heat more, true, but glass lets in the heat at full blast and also warms up the concrete floor, so double whammy.

I always thought that glass is better than wall as wall retain heat untill you mention the concrete floor also.

[ulrich76]

Dear Yowetan,

just some views which I hope will be useful:

1. Agree that it is a difficult decision for a first time home buyer. Buy now scared prices drop; dun buy scare prices shoot up. To mitigate the risk, maybe you can consider a smaller 2BR condo. Many of these in the suburbs - Jurong, CCK, Sengkang, Pasir Ris, Woodlands etc. $500k should be able to get you a decent unit. Also make sure the bank valuation matches, then you end up just paying 5% of the cost in cash ($25k), 15% in CPF and the rest bank loan.

If property mkt crash later, the condo may drop to about $400k, which is probably bearable, as compared to bigger loss for a bigger unit. 2BR is also enough for you and your spouse even if you have 2 kids.

Think HDB resale is not a good choice now. With average 20k COV, you can end up paying easily 45k and above in cash (incl agent comm). HDB prices have also moved up too fast and I think it has more risk of falling alot, as compared mass mkt resale condos.

2. Don't ever think FH/999yr condos are superior to leasehold, its the worst fallacy. For property, location is everything. And most FH are not near amenities/MRT. The simple reason is this. When all the hype and buzz is gone, a property's worth goes back to its rental value and rental yield. Taking Hillview as an example, if you are an mid level expat looking for a place to rent, for the same price, would you rent a Hillview FH condo that is near nothing or the Jade next to Bt Batok MRT/West Mall? Some people will argue FH has higher chance of enbloc which is totally nonsense. Look at the condos which were put up for enbloc - many of them are 99yr and the leases were simply topped up for the new development.

3. Lastly, buy a property which allows you to pay by CPF totally. Cash is king - try not to touch it for property. Cash will help if you are jobless or any emergency.

Sharing from experience, my wife and I earn more than $15k combined and we are early 30s with one kid. The place we bot costs $650k - resale condo in Sengkang. We paid $33k in cash and the rest in CPF. Monthly repayment (25yo loan) is $2.2k (all CPF). We have no illusions in buying a $1m condo "dream home" in the East which means a larger downpayment and monthly instalment in cash. We are contented with what we have and have no wish to risk it. Imagine the stress if prop mkt crashes and condo value drops $300k or if we lose our jobs...

Yah, we are staying in our parent's home nowadays. Shutter between mine and my spouse parent's houses.

I did consider DBSS, but the thought of almost 600k really puts me off. With that kind of atrocious sum, I may have a chance to get a hillview FH/999 leasehold units. In addition, I dun wish to ladden myself with debts financing my home; moreover our jobs nowadays arent stable anymore with the globalization running amok in our country.

It really set me thinking if I should just stay put in my parents home instead to save all these woes.

[sleek]

Dear Yowetan,

We have no illusions in buying a $1m condo "dream home" in the East which means a larger downpayment and monthly instalment in cash. We are contented with what we have and have no wish to risk it. Imagine the stress if prop mkt crashes and condo value drops $300k or if we lose our jobs...

Same-same, would love to return to my roots in the East, but don't think I'll risk it.

[coburn]

Dear Yowetan,

We have no illusions in buying a $1m condo "dream home" in the East which means a larger downpayment and monthly instalment in cash. We are contented with what we have and have no wish to risk it. Imagine the stress if prop mkt crashes and condo value drops $300k or if we lose our jobs...

This i agree wholeheartedly... Contentment is key.
Me and my wife have annual household income of more than 300k but we stay in a 2 BR leasehold condo in sengkang and drive avante

of course we are tempted to buy a dream penthouse but current place suits us fine so there is no urge to change, esp in this inflated climate (my opinion)

more importantly, we can be debt-free and even if both of us lose our jobs at the same time, we have sufficient savings to last us a few years. This peace of mind is priceless.

[thomastansb]

I beg to differ on point 3.

My GF and myself earn about 10k combined income. Bought a unit at the sail. Loan is 800k. You can imagine the installment. Now, the thing is not about dream home or what. To me, no risk no gain. It's the timing. If you buy at 600k, then drop to 400k, then how? Lose 200k. It is the timing. My housing loan is close to 60% paid up based on my paper gain. So it's the timing as well as risk appetite. Hopefully by end of this year, my loan is fully paid up and will sell it.

Dear Yowetan,

just some views which I hope will be useful:

1. Agree that it is a difficult decision for a first time home buyer. Buy now scared prices drop; dun buy scare prices shoot up. To mitigate the risk, maybe you can consider a smaller 2BR condo. Many of these in the suburbs - Jurong, CCK, Sengkang, Pasir Ris, Woodlands etc. $500k should be able to get you a decent unit. Also make sure the bank valuation matches, then you end up just paying 5% of the cost in cash ($25k), 15% in CPF and the rest bank loan.

If property mkt crash later, the condo may drop to about $400k, which is probably bearable, as compared to bigger loss for a bigger unit. 2BR is also enough for you and your spouse even if you have 2 kids.

Think HDB resale is not a good choice now. With average 20k COV, you can end up paying easily 45k and above in cash (incl agent comm). HDB prices have also moved up too fast and I think it has more risk of falling alot, as compared mass mkt resale condos.

2. Don't ever think FH/999yr condos are superior to leasehold, its the worst fallacy. For property, location is everything. And most FH are not near amenities/MRT. The simple reason is this. When all the hype and buzz is gone, a property's worth goes back to its rental value and rental yield. Taking Hillview as an example, if you are an mid level expat looking for a place to rent, for the same price, would you rent a Hillview FH condo that is near nothing or the Jade next to Bt Batok MRT/West Mall? Some people will argue FH has higher chance of enbloc which is totally nonsense. Look at the condos which were put up for enbloc - many of them are 99yr and the leases were simply topped up for the new development.

3. Lastly, buy a property which allows you to pay by CPF totally. Cash is king - try not to touch it for property. Cash will help if you are jobless or any emergency.

Sharing from experience, my wife and I earn more than $15k combined and we are early 30s with one kid. The place we bot costs $650k - resale condo in Sengkang. We paid $33k in cash and the rest in CPF. Monthly repayment (25yo loan) is $2.2k (all CPF). We have no illusions in buying a $1m condo "dream home" in the East which means a larger downpayment and monthly instalment in cash. We are contented with what we have and have no wish to risk it. Imagine the stress if prop mkt crashes and condo value drops $300k or if we lose our jobs...

[cl0ver]

I beg to differ on point 3.

My GF and myself earn about 10k combined income. Bought a unit at the sail. Loan is 800k. You can imagine the installment. Now, the thing is not about dream home or what. To me, no risk no gain. It's the timing. If you buy at 600k, then drop to 400k, then how? Lose 200k. It is the timing. My housing loan is close to 60% paid up based on my paper gain. So it's the timing as well as risk appetite. Hopefully by end of this year, my loan is fully paid up and will sell it.

thomas, your risk profile may be different to others. you are not married and have no kids, hence the committment level is different from someone who has a family.
Timing is one thing, luck is also another thing.

[xebay11]

This i agree wholeheartedly... Contentment is key.
Me and my wife have annual household income of more than 300k but we stay in a 2 BR leasehold condo in sengkang and drive avante

of course we are tempted to buy a dream penthouse but current place suits us fine so there is no urge to change, esp in this inflated climate (my opinion)

more importantly, we can be debt-free and even if both of us lose our jobs at the same time, we have sufficient savings to last us a few years. This peace of mind is priceless.

Sorry to hate to burst your bubble, but with more than $300k in combined income you could have easily mutliplied your money, I shan't teach you too much or else I may lose opps myself, but now I know why most ppl never look towards a certain segment of property market which can generate huge returns and only look at residential. Ha Ha.

Hint! This property sector can generate huge rental returns through rent and unlike residential property, the tenants actually enhance your property. I feel sad you have wasted opportunites. A few years ago you could have picked them up for a song, but these days sellers are getting smart and actually pricing in future returns.....the property market is all about first mover advantage and you are still stuck at GO in the Monopoly game of life.

I have one maxim in life, it is a sin to sleep in a million dollar property as it could have been invested for better returns, but it is even a bigger sin to sleep on cash.

[xebay11]

Dear Yowetan,

just some views which I hope will be useful:

2. Don't ever think FH/999yr condos are superior to leasehold, its the worst fallacy. For property, location is everything. And most FH are not near amenities/MRT. The simple reason is this. When all the hype and buzz is gone, a property's worth goes back to its rental value and rental yield. Taking Hillview as an example, if you are an mid level expat looking for a place to rent, for the same price, would you rent a Hillview FH condo that is near nothing or the Jade next to Bt Batok MRT/West Mall? Some people will argue FH has higher chance of enbloc which is totally nonsense. Look at the condos which were put up for enbloc - many of them are 99yr and the leases were simply topped up for the new development.

Your analysis on LH and FH is flawed,

1. Today's 99 LH condos being enbloced are sitting on HUGE pieces of land, they were built from 1960s up to 1980s ie huge open space parking land and communal facilties, like Neptune Court, can you imagine in 30 years time anybody wanting to enbloc a development like Trevista? Even if they do, once you divide the number of units over the land area how much land ownership does each owner get compensated as a strata title owner? Not sure if they can even recover their costs made in 2009. Land is bought at a psf basis not airspace, so the higher the development and the greater the number of units, the more airspace.

2. If population hits 6 million in 10 years, the market would grow up till then but after that, there is no real need anymore for new homes, so there would be no pressing need for enloc as there would be no more land shortage. This is unlike the past where population grew and grew, hence property owners made money.

3. How do you know if Govt will top up lease? you take it as a given, what if Trevista is not allowed to top up, as the land is too prime and the Govt may have other plans, so the value plunges right down after 10 years You want to risk your life savings to bet that Govt will approve top up?

4. Cash is not king, if you know where to look, many well located properties actually generate more than enough income to cover your installments.

[xebay11]

thomas, your risk profile may be different to others. you are not married and have no kids, hence the committment level is different from someone who has a family.
Timing is one thing, luck is also another thing.

Astute is another, Thomas is astute.

[gohsoonk]

Agree with most points. Ulrich76 is a prudent guy.

For point 3, while it is desirable to use CPF, it is difficult these days as the price is high.

Cash on hand is impt so that we can tide out the bottom for the repayments and sell it when it goes u higher.

For those with families, it is about marathon running and not a 100m sprint.

Dear Yowetan,

just some views which I hope will be useful:

1. Agree that it is a difficult decision for a first time home buyer. Buy now scared prices drop; dun buy scare prices shoot up. To mitigate the risk, maybe you can consider a smaller 2BR condo. Many of these in the suburbs - Jurong, CCK, Sengkang, Pasir Ris, Woodlands etc. $500k should be able to get you a decent unit. Also make sure the bank valuation matches, then you end up just paying 5% of the cost in cash ($25k), 15% in CPF and the rest bank loan.

If property mkt crash later, the condo may drop to about $400k, which is probably bearable, as compared to bigger loss for a bigger unit. 2BR is also enough for you and your spouse even if you have 2 kids.

Think HDB resale is not a good choice now. With average 20k COV, you can end up paying easily 45k and above in cash (incl agent comm). HDB prices have also moved up too fast and I think it has more risk of falling alot, as compared mass mkt resale condos.

2. Don't ever think FH/999yr condos are superior to leasehold, its the worst fallacy. For property, location is everything. And most FH are not near amenities/MRT. The simple reason is this. When all the hype and buzz is gone, a property's worth goes back to its rental value and rental yield. Taking Hillview as an example, if you are an mid level expat looking for a place to rent, for the same price, would you rent a Hillview FH condo that is near nothing or the Jade next to Bt Batok MRT/West Mall? Some people will argue FH has higher chance of enbloc which is totally nonsense. Look at the condos which were put up for enbloc - many of them are 99yr and the leases were simply topped up for the new development.

3. Lastly, buy a property which allows you to pay by CPF totally. Cash is king - try not to touch it for property. Cash will help if you are jobless or any emergency.

Sharing from experience, my wife and I earn more than $15k combined and we are early 30s with one kid. The place we bot costs $650k - resale condo in Sengkang. We paid $33k in cash and the rest in CPF. Monthly repayment (25yo loan) is $2.2k (all CPF). We have no illusions in buying a $1m condo "dream home" in the East which means a larger downpayment and monthly instalment in cash. We are contented with what we have and have no wish to risk it. Imagine the stress if prop mkt crashes and condo value drops $300k or if we lose our jobs...

[DC33_2008]

Your analysis on LH and FH is flawed,

1. Today's 99 LH condos being enbloced are sitting on HUGE pieces of land, they were built from 1960s up to 1980s ie huge open space parking land and communal facilties, like Neptune Court, can you imagine in 30 years time anybody wanting to enbloc a development like Trevista? Even if they do, once you divide the number of units over the land area how much land ownership does each owner get compensated as a strata title owner? Not sure if they can even recover their costs made in 2009. Land is bought at a psf basis not airspace, so the higher the development and the greater the number of units, the more airspace.

2. If population hits 6 million in 10 years, the market would grow up till then but after that, there is no real need anymore for new homes, so there would be no pressing need for enloc as there would be no more land shortage. This is unlike the past where population grew and grew, hence property owners made money.

3. How do you know if Govt will top up lease? you take it as a given, what if Trevista is not allowed to top up, as the land is too prime and the Govt may have other plans, so the value plunges right down after 10 years You want to risk your life savings to bet that Govt will approve top up?

4. Cash is not king, if you know where to look, many well located properties actually generate more than enough income to cover your installments.

I beg to differ on your Point (1). There is a third dimesion, ie. plot ratio. Developer will be interested in any development which has a significant increase in the plot ratio.

[xebay11]

I beg to differ on your Point (1). There is a third dimesion, ie. plot ratio. Developer will be interested in any development which has a significant increase in the plot ratio.

Newer condos have been built according to the adjusted increased plot ratio already, do you think today's ultra built up developments can benefit from any increased future plot ratio physically, or that they will be increased in future?

[DC33_2008]

Sorry to hate to burst your bubble, but with more than $300k in combined income you could have easily mutliplied your money, I shan't teach you too much or else I may lose opps myself, but now I know why most ppl never look towards a certain segment of property market which can generate huge returns and only look at residential. Ha Ha.

Hint! This property sector can generate huge rental returns through rent and unlike residential property, the tenants actually enhance your property. I feel sad you have wasted opportunites. A few years ago you could have picked them up for a song, but these days sellers are getting smart and actually pricing in future returns.....the property market is all about first mover advantage and you are still stuck at GO in the Monopoly game of life.

I have one maxim in life, it is a sin to sleep in a million dollar property as it could have been invested for better returns, but it is even a bigger sin to sleep on cash.

There is no right or wrong when it comes to contentment. They are just not Li Ka Shing type.

[xebay11]

There is no right or wrong when it comes to contentment. They are just not Li Ka Shing type.

True, but I have seen common people like teachers make millions in property, being first movers.

[ulrich76]

I have one maxim in life, it is a sin to sleep in a million dollar property as it could have been invested for better returns, but it is even a bigger sin to sleep on cash.

Ask yourself what will happen to you if you win that bet or if you lose it. If I bet on a $1m property and win, I simply have more money and my life will not change. If I lose, my quality of life will suffer.

Everyone has their own aspirations and there are no right answers. But also need to realise everyone is a property investment guru during a bull run like now

[DC33_2008]

Newer condos have been built according to the adjusted increased plot ratio already, do you think today's ultra built up developments can benefit from any increased future plot ratio physically, or that they will be increased in future?

I am just saying $psf/pr is one of the many factors a developer would look for in a prospective enbloc site. MND will be able to answer your question on the future as they will be spelt out in the future concept plan and Development Guide Plan of each region. Given the limited land area in Singapore, we will have to go upward in some places in the near future. You can probably guess where are these places. Some places have height restriction like near the airports, airbase, etc.

[xebay11]

Ask yourself what will happen to you if you win that bet or if you lose it. If I bet on a $1m property and win, I simply have more money and my life will not change. If I lose, my quality of life will suffer.

Everyone has their own aspirations and there are no right answers. But also need to realise everyone is a property investment guru during a bull run like now

There are ways to mitigate the risk.

1. Buy within your means

2. Buy FH where possible, if LH they must be very well located and if possible, flipped within 5 years.

3. Buy near MRT or city, so that rental income can protect you in case of failure, if husband and wife work, rental income is triple redundancy.

4. If you feel no appetite for risk, stay put, try not to make any compromises on the points I have outlined.

[DC33_2008]

True, but I have seen common people like teachers make millions in property, being first movers.

It is not about the profession but the hunger and fire within the person. Li shouldered the responsibility of looking after the livelihood of the family after his Dad pass away. He was forced to leave school before the age of 15 and found a job in a plastics trading company where he labored 16 hours a day in his early days.

I believe it is about leveraging even for the rich. However, the poor has more to lose as compared to the millionaire or billionaire. Timing and domain knowledge of property is somewhat important. Do not follow the herd mentality.