The cost of physical construction cannot be almost $500 psf. Someone must be charging humongous profit into the $3bil bill.Originally Posted by amk
Senior
The cost of physical construction cannot be almost $500 psf. Someone must be charging humongous profit into the $3bil bill.
Exalted
watever it is....it doesnt matter....if developer buy at low land price...they also launch at market price.....u see robinson suites....make almost double!i tink robinson suites priced too LOW!! how come left PHs after today's balloting! underpriced!!! haha
Junior
Correct. And in this case, even at this slightly above market selling price, capitaland is not making much.watever it is....it doesnt matter....if developer buy at low land price...they also launch at market price.....u see robinson suites....make almost double!
And yes the selling point is the VIEW. Totally unblocked view of bt timah greeneries, botanic gardens, or "city view" if that's ur cup of tea. I particularly like the bt timah side. The view at 36th floor will be breathtaking. And that will be permanent, since anything after king's road is 1.4 with height restriction already.
The furnishing is poor,and inconsistent. Homogenous tiles / laminated floors for "normal" units, but marble and timbre flooring for PHs. No name china sanitary fittings for normal units, but I see boutique names for the GH unit. Even the intercom, for blk 11 and 13, it's only audio, but for 7 and 9, it's audio and video.
Devil I didn't ask for the size of the townhouse. Wah u really keen huh ? 6 mil u can go opposite Summerville get one 3 storey townhouse already.
Junior
The "view" is nothing to shout about. - it's not as if sea view or nature reserves view like Treehouse (yes got some bukit timah hill view lah but very far away obstructed by other concrete and buildings). The selling point can'be good view because a lot of condos can see Bukit Timah hill/Mt FaberMacritchie and much nearer to the view. The USP is the district 10 address or maybe some despo parents for NYPS. Anyway, again tiny units (700+ sq ft? - really cheapen the area) go first which means most are specuvestors again? Faint. "Breath-taking" is not a word to define the surrounding view, unless one has very low standard.
I know the original cost is not important but some idiots may go around thinking "because developer doesn't make much money, therefore good deals." Such idiots exist. Scroll up.
Last edited by Wild Falcon; 04-12-10 at 17:22.
Junior
Never heard of this one before. Clearly only an idiot can come with an idea like this. And only an idiot actually believes there are idiots out there thinking the same.
Wild, u r questioning whether capl overstates its cost. U have no clue. I gave u the fact, that capl is borrowing 3bln at a cost of 150. What does this has anything to do with this project is good deal or not ? U cannot accept this fact, then pls continue ur argument. Find ur evidence that capl is lying. Dun run away from ur allegations.
View is nothing ? Anyone who visited the 25 floor "viewing gallery" and came up with that conclusion clearly is in denial. This IS the selling point. Did you actually go and see it for yourself ?
And pls stop the silly idea that "ppl are obsessed with district numbers therefor they go and buy". Only YOU have this thought. Not a single poster here takes district number THAT seriously as you do. So please stop harping on it.
NYPS, even this yr without tis project, balloting within 1km is already 1 to 3. So please dun assume only u r smart and others are stupid. Go to kiasuparent site and take a read. U think only u know being within 1km means nothing now ?
Ppl are buying this project for various reasons. There are many good things about this project, so are many bad things. For ex there is one fatal traffic problem, which I mentioned earlier, that you dun know.
Ppl cannot be expert in every area. You have to accept you dun understand certain districts.
Global recession is coming....
People don't really care about district address only lah. For example, the District 10 at the boundary of District 21 Upper Bukit Timah cannot fly, although that is still District 10.
Similarly District 10 Mt Sinai area also cannot fly. The most important thing is location x3.
Farrer Court's location is not considered the best in D10 but it is not that bad either (better than the D10 in Mt Sinai or close to Upper Bukit Timah). Selling at $1600 psf for a 99LH is fair at current market (I suppose).
You are right that "view" is nothing. In Orchard, some projects have almost ZERO view but they still sell at >$2500 psf (and those Orchard projects with view are almost snapped up quickly!). Conversely, many places which have so called nice views can't even command $1200 psf. You can carry on to call them stupid and conversely they will call you idiot for not understanding the time value of money etc. (Time is priceless to them! They rather spend money to save time and effort of travel etc since costs is not the most major concern to them when they purchase a property).
Senior
It will be beyond my expectation if they can sell more than 500 units to individual owners by the end of this month.
Junior
after looking at the "successful" launches of this and robinson suites. I have only one conclusion if you're looking for a property. Look at the resale market. Forget about new launches.... it just doesn't make any sense....
Junior
Sorry, people do take me seriously. Just in case you don't know, i am the first who bring up
(i) A lot of luxury projects are going to TOP with many unoccupied units.
(ii) Mass market condos will do better since last year.
Nobody dares to take a different view. And guess what, just 2 weeks ago, suddenly all the experts came out to say "1000 luxury units are unsold when TOP" In short, I take a view and it has been proven to be correct.
Have you said anything that is credible or incredible other than the most amazing thing I've ever heard - your children cannot travel in a car for more than xx minutes? Or only Novena Sq have children's enrichment class? And I'm pretty sure you don't much say in choice of home - it has to be 1km of XXX school - in short it's other people's choice and you don't have much of a personality to speak of. Just like the gfoo whose life is probably dictated by his child/wife and everything with a badge has lost all sense of self. Or anything with a nice-sounding district no. even at the far end of a district is VERY NEAR to town? Or BREATHTAKING VIEW at FARRER ROAD? And you think people take you seriously? BREATHTAKING? Sorry.
And I'm just saying the construction costs of $500psf could be overstated looking at the quality and the fact there is economies of scale from so many units. It has nothing to do with how much the company borrows. A company can borrow for various matters right?
Junior
that's because u start to use expletives, when u r being confronted with fact against a claim. And that's insulting.
This is your opinion. Gfoo is a caring parent, I was giving my opinion as if I were in his shoes (traveling, classes, etc). I believe his last post on that subject is an excellent read. If u haven't read it, pls spare some time on it. There is a diff between "dictated by ##" and "being responsible for ###".Just like the gfoo whose life is probably dictated by his child/wife
Another thing we disagree totally is the value of staying around central area. This is ok. Every one is entitled to his opinion. Teddy has far stronger opinion on this so I can leave this to himbtw I like mass market too.
It has everything to do with this. The 3bln is a syndicated facility specifically for this project. The 150 spread is for the initial yrs before sles start. After sales start, if it meets a target, the spread will be reduced to 125. And after certain percentage is sold, spread will be reduced again. This facility was a big deal at that time. All the banks were trying to lend to capl.It has nothing to do with how much the company borrows. A company can borrow for various matters right?
Company can of course also borrow for working capital. This is not.
CCR Only
Cool it guys... No hard feeling... Just difference views from individual...
Global recession is coming....
Sure or not? Show the links to prove it can?
Huh? I have been taking opposite views that luxury will sooner or later thrive.
By the way, what you said in (i) seen to implies that luxury projects are doomed. But fact is, regardless of how many unoccupied condo units in these luxury projects, we have Ardmore Park selling at about $3500 psf, Paterson Suites selling $3200 psf, Boulevard Vue selling $4600 psf, Orchard Residences selling $3000-4000 psf.These prices are still below 2007 peaks (compared to mass market condos already well above 2007 peaks). There are actually many CCR properties within the vicinity of Orchard and selling below $3000 psf! Mind you, these are dirt prices as compared to Centro and Vision selling at $1300 psf or Seletar location selling at $1000 psf! (1 would expect Orchard to be selling at 3-5x that of those lousy OCR locations - unless the Singapore's rich are really that poor (comparatively to the middle-income group) and the Singapore's middle class OCR property buyers are so rich!). Markets always go back to normal correlation between different classes/segments, which means time for luxury to go above 2007 peaks in next 1-2 years? Ok, you can mark my words for that.
I can tell you that it is a fact - United Square has the best enrichment/tuition school in Singapore - People living all over Singapore (regardless of distance, including many rich, famous, politically powerfuls) send their kids here for tuition. They help to nurture high grades. If you kids take an entrance test and cannot even achieve reasonable grade, they didn't even want to accept your kid into the school.
Last edited by teddybear; 05-12-10 at 13:59.
Senior
The overseas high net-worth investors may not be so worried about rental income as they just want to park the money here which is safer and more stable, and look forward to capital appreciation.
Global recession is coming....
And it is also a fact - If you don't live within 1km in the vicinity of the famous schools near the Newton & Balmoral areas, you can't even get your kids into these schools even if you are a parent volunteers!
Exalted
CCR seriously LAG behind! hehe.....especially so after i realised Greenwich 1bedder sold at 14xxpsf!
Junior
AMK, First thing first. I did NOT use expletives. Please go find definition of expletives if you do not understand the meaning of the word. Second, a bank facility is a facility (pls google definition if you don't understand)right? If you ever work in treasury, you will know any company will ask for a buffer in their credit facility based on a "conservative budget". Actual construction costs may deviate from the loan credit facility. Since in your limited scope world, you think actuals will never deviate from the budget, then so be it. And I know, companies will present the "most conservative" plan to the banks. I really find it immature to assume that just because some company ask for a large facility, it shall be drawn down to the maximum and construction costs is going to be fixed from there. Companies can and will still seek to minimise construction costs even though there is a large credit facility in the background they can draw on. So large credit facility does NOT equate construction costs. PERIOD. And I believe nobody is kind enough to even tell you this.
Newbie
Have to agree on this. The developer will definitely budget more than they need. They do not have to fully draw down if they come in under budget. No one wants to run out of cash halfway.
Personally I wouldn't touch this project. There are plenty of other better choices in the market now.
Senior
Fortunately, the family size these days is not large. Otherwise, students of alumni and siblings would have taken up most of the P1 places of good primary schools.
Junior
Wild this facility is a collection of several items, comprising term loan, credit facility, revolving loans, and some other "structured" facilities. You are clearly not in banking line, if you are I will not have to explain to you, as this was one of the biggest domestic syndicated deal brokered that year.
U raise the point that the 3bln is for "budgeting only". And hinted the actual cost can be dramatically lower. This is at best a wild guess. And it is implying capl is deliberately misleading the shareholders and public of its cost. Dun forget a spread of 150 is not exactly small. For the best of my knowledge, capl is one of the more transparent developers, or corporates for that matter, in this business. Of course you can disagree. Let's just leave it at that.
Now back to topic. Agent told me there is a price jump from 24th to 25th flr. I saw a 3bd on 25th asking 18##psf !
Dun know which one is more over priced. This one or the jurong 1000psf keepel project.
Global recession is coming....
Surely the Jurong one at $1000 psf more overpriced lah!
If people really believe that places like Jurong can command >$1000 psf now and in future, let's wait and see for next 5 years - see whether that $1000 psf can hold up or not 2 years after TOP.
Wild this facility is a collection of several items, comprising term loan, credit facility, revolving loans, and some other "structured" facilities. You are clearly not in banking line, if you are I will not have to explain to you, as this was one of the biggest domestic syndicated deal brokered that year.
U raise the point that the 3bln is for "budgeting only". And hinted the actual cost can be dramatically lower. This is at best a wild guess. And it is implying capl is deliberately misleading the shareholders and public of its cost. Dun forget a spread of 150 is not exactly small. For the best of my knowledge, capl is one of the more transparent developers, or corporates for that matter, in this business. Of course you can disagree. Let's just leave it at that.
Now back to topic. Agent told me there is a price jump from 24th to 25th flr. I saw a 3bd on 25th asking 18##psf !
Dun know which one is more over priced. This one or the jurong 1000psf keepel project.
Exalted
I find it strange as well....2bedder stack 40,41....24th flr ard 1700psf but 25th flr at 20xxpsf....its like stopping ppl from buying the low flr and get them buy low flr first.....
Now back to topic. Agent told me there is a price jump from 24th to 25th flr. I saw a 3bd on 25th asking 18##psf !
Dun know which one is more over priced. This one or the jurong 1000psf keepel project.
Senior
They want you to set the standard with the low floor first. If they set the standard with the high floors, it's very hard to sell the lower floors later at a higher price.
Senior
It's really strange to have the same stack and size but $psf between 24th and 25th floor is about $400. Better to get the 24th unit.
Senior
those who don't like the number 24 and opt for 22 or 23.
Junior
Precisely. You finally understand what is a facility - google really works wonders. The facility comprise various term loans and credit lines. To assume the size of the facility will equate the full construction costs is the silliest thing I have heard. And if you are indeed in the line, you will know that a significant buffer (at least 30%) built in just to make sure there is headroom in covenants etc. Nuff said. To go around saying a full credit line including revolving credit lines equates construction costs is the silliest thing I have heard in my entire life. It's not about lying to shareholders- all shareholders will want to maximise profits (i.e. minimize construction costs) and ensure the company is prudent in its cash flows projections with some buffer. Having some buffer in cash flows is NOT equivalent to lying. All companies, esp listed ones, need to manage expectations so that they can "exceed" expectations. It's better to under-promise than over-promise.
Wild this facility is a collection of several items, comprising term loan, credit facility, revolving loans, and some other "structured" facilities. You are clearly not in banking line, if you are I will not have to explain to you, as this was one of the biggest domestic syndicated deal brokered that year.
U raise the point that the 3bln is for "budgeting only". And hinted the actual cost can be dramatically lower. This is at best a wild guess. And it is implying capl is deliberately misleading the shareholders and public of its cost. Dun forget a spread of 150 is not exactly small. For the best of my knowledge, capl is one of the more transparent developers, or corporates for that matter, in this business. Of course you can disagree. Let's just leave it at that.
Now back to topic. Agent told me there is a price jump from 24th to 25th flr. I saw a 3bd on 25th asking 18##psf !
Dun know which one is more over priced. This one or the jurong 1000psf keepel project.
Exalted
actually among the new launches....i prefer this one...
abit tempted to get the smaller 2bedder....too bad, the 2nd bedroom only got a small pathetic window....still got baywindow, planters...1 toilet only too...inefficient layout...if layout smthing like PRIVE, i wud hf bot one
Junior
I don't take sides. But I think the silliest argument is that just because the developer charges a price that allows him to only break even, it must be a good deal, and if the price allows the developer to make a lot of money, then it is a bad deal. whoever hold that view must have not taken economics 101.
from the buyer's perspective, what matters is whether the price makes economic sense, not whether the price allows the seller to make a lot or little money. if you buy a high-priced ticket to see a lousy movie, which costs a lot to make, you wouldn't get much out of the movie, even if the movie studio loses money by charging that price. when buying a cabbage, all I care if the price is consistent with the pleasure that I derive from eating that cabbage, not how much it cost the supermarket to acquire that stupid cabbage.
by the same token, it is stupid of sellers of condos to insist that the price be higher than the price they paid to acquire that condo. the price must be consistent with the current economic reality. just because you paid 2200psf to acquire that stupid duchess residences doesn't mean it is worth that much now and you must get a higher price in order to sell.
Newbie
I heard weekend sales very encouraging. Out of 250 units released, 200 were sold @ an average selling price of $1650 psf. Lower floors units were sold in the range of $1450 to $1700psf, while 17th floors and above at $1700psf.
Junior
one week and sold only 200 out of 1700. It would take a long time to sell out, if it will ever sell out. buyer enthusiasm is higher in the first week. after a week or two, no one cares. just look at the interlace.
hundred trees was 80% sold within a week.
Newbie
I am shocked to note that you being such an experienced forumer with more than 1000 postings can get this so dead wrong.
Out of 250 units released, 200 were sold. How wrong can you get...Tsk tsk..
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