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Thread: Taking the mickey out of home buyers

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    Default Taking the mickey out of home buyers

    http://www.straitstimes.com/Invest/S...ry_560407.html

    Aug 1, 2010

    Taking the mickey out of home buyers

    Prices of small projects and tiny apartments unlikely to hold up well, say experts

    By Joyce Teo, Property Correspondent


    Property prices may be strong and on the uptrend.

    But not all private homes will appreciate equally in value or be able to maintain their value in bad times.

    For example, small projects and tiny 'mickey mouse' units of less than 500 sq ft may be the first to be hit should the market suffer a reversal, experts said.

    A lot of risk also hinges on entry price levels, which can be high in boom times, they added.

    A property expert, who declined to be named, said smallish developments - some having just 15 to 30 units - have limited appeal.

    'These developments do not have full facilities and the road outside is usually very narrow,' he said.

    'In the Telok Kurau area, you can sell a unit in a small development for maybe $900 per sq ft (psf) if you are lucky. But nearby, big condominiums such as One Amber or The Seaview can go for $1,200 psf.'

    The lorongs in Telok Kurau are often narrow two-lane roads, whereas One Amber and The Seaview are on main traffic ways.

    Investors should also do their homework before rushing to invest in 'mickey mouse' apartments of less than 500 sq ft.

    These apartments, sometimes called 'bikini units', can work out well if they are located in the city or near an MRT station as single expatriates may be drawn to them, the expert said.

    'It becomes a question mark when people start building them in the suburban areas,' he said. 'If investors want to sell or rent them out, there may be some resistance.'

    Mr Colin Tan, research and consultancy director of Chesterton Suntec International, said the small apartments are like penny stocks. They have much speculative potential but have little worth otherwise, he said.

    Ms Tay Huey Ying, director of research and advisory at Colliers International, said that generally, properties that have comprehensive recreational facilities and sufficient green areas will fare better in terms of rentals and values than apartments that do not.

    Investors should also be wary of ageing 99-year leasehold developments, said the expert.

    The price gap between a freehold and a leasehold property - which can be marginal in boom times - may widen as the leasehold property ages and its lease shortens.

    Ms Tay said it all depends on what investors are looking for.

    If they are looking for pure rental income, they can go for 99-year leasehold properties as these can generate more attractive yields than freehold properties, she said.

    A freehold property may generate a rental yield of 3 per cent to 3.5 per cent while a leasehold property may offer a slightly higher yield of 4 per cent to 5 per cent.

    But if they are looking for capital appreciation, ageing leasehold properties of 40 years and above may see weaker price appreciation compared with their freehold counterparts.

    A second expert, who also declined to be named, said: 'There is the danger of facing limited capital appreciation or even losses if you chase new leasehold projects at sky-high prices.'

    These high-risk investments are 99-year leasehold projects priced above $1,000 psf, he said.

    'In five years' time, you may not be hit if the market is good. But in 20 years' time, the risks rise as the lease would have run down and the condo design will likely become outdated.'

    Property experts also point to walk-up apartments, and cluster homes with basements located in flood-prone areas, as potential high-risk investments.

    'The design of a walk-up is quite outdated. Many people, especially families with elderly members, do not want to climb three or four flights of stairs to their apartments. But investors buy these for their collective sale potential,' said one.

    'Lower-priced properties - but not necessarily cheap properties - in red-light districts or in very inaccessible places' are also high-risk investments, said Mr Tan.

    'Don't buy something just because it is cheap or cheaper. Get your priorities right. Buy for the right reasons,' he advised.

    [email protected]

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    i think joyce must be hidden somewhere in this forum. these issues have been debated in the Estuary thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    i think joyce must be hidden somewhere in this forum. these issues have been debated in the Estuary thread.

    not that i disagree with the report ...

    some parts do make alot of sense ...


    what i cannot tahan is .. why those experts so scared ?

    why all chose not to be named ?

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    i agree with a lot of what is being said in this article. I am just waiting to see how MM units in prime districts like Espada and Illuminaire will do when they TOP. I fully agree that MM units in suburban areas make little sense for rental yield when renting a 3 bedder already cost little.


    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    not that i disagree with the report ...

    some parts do make alot of sense ...


    what i cannot tahan is .. why those experts so scared ?

    why all chose not to be named ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    i agree with a lot of what is being said in this article. I am just waiting to see how MM units in prime districts like Espada and Illuminaire will do when they TOP. I fully agree that MM units in suburban areas make little sense for rental yield when renting a 3 bedder already cost little.
    illuminaire not so bad rite...1bedder ard 450sqft...launch price quite low as well...ard 1700psf

    but espada abit too MM...lol

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    These people have no idea that Mickeymousation has arrived.

    Houses can only get smaller and smaller, not bigger and bigger.

    History is scattered with the bones of those who fight against the inevitable.


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    so in time to come, owning a big condo becomes a rare commodity with the scene flooded with mm units. A number of 1700sf Greenlodge condo units are going for 1.3mil and just opposite is Terrene selling a 900sf at 1.2mil, what an irony. If anyone has the brains, they should know which has more investment potential. Mickey mice happens to be those who like all things new, but the smart will go for all things big and rare. Enuf education in this forum, but you are right, the fight against all the mickey mice out there is futile

    Quote Originally Posted by jlrx
    These people have no idea that Mickeymousation has arrived.

    Houses can only get smaller and smaller, not bigger and bigger.

    History is scattered with the bones of those who fight against the inevitable.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    so in time to come, owning a big condo becomes a rare commodity with the scene flooded with mm units. A number of 1700sf Greenlodge condo units are going for 1.3mil and just opposite is Terrene selling a 900sf at 1.2mil, what an irony. If anyone has the brains, they should know which has more investment potential. Mickey mice happens to be those who like all things new, but the smart will go for all things big and rare. Enuf education in this forum, but you are right, the fight against all the mickey mice out there is futile
    bopian la...i myself also prefer new new...new stuff...registered for new iph4 oredi!

    i went to scout condos ard hillview...in the end, i will only pay for new new hillvista if i really want to invest in tat area

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    nothing against new projects, just hate the huge planters, bay windows and aircon ledges and pes areas...

    Quote Originally Posted by devilplate
    bopian la...i myself also prefer new new...new stuff...registered for new iph4 oredi!

    i went to scout condos ard hillview...in the end, i will only pay for new new hillvista if i really want to invest in tat area

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    nothing against new projects, just hate the huge planters, bay windows and aircon ledges and pes areas...
    actually i hate planter boxes the most! PES area...depend whether u nid/use them anot...some ppl prefer ground flr with big big PES.

    apart from pricing, FEO projects usually got min wastage...mostly no planter boxes, smaller width baywindow and smaller aircon ledge

    i am quite a fan of FEO actually...haha

    hate those developers tat does trick/cheat include big big planter box.,....big big aircon ledge just to make their psf looks lower...GIMMICK

    i rmb visiting a clustered housing showflat...psf looks very low 4xxpsf at tat time...BUT, they actually include inaccessible roof top area into strata space! ultimate cheat!...i ask the agt how come only this project include...he say u goto maintain ur own roof top....so goto include into the total flr area

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    i think joyce must be hidden somewhere in this forum. these issues have been debated in the Estuary thread.
    many journalists go into forums to dig for subject matter and opinions. i suspect many of them are already here. previously there were a few suspected jounos posting and asking provocative questions on the expat forum about several issues, lo & behold, couple of weeks later, same topics were written up in the ST. such is the standard of journalism in SG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devilplate
    actually i hate planter boxes the most! PES area...depend whether u nid/use them anot...some ppl prefer ground flr with big big PES.

    apart from pricing, FEO projects usually got min wastage...mostly no planter boxes, smaller width baywindow and smaller aircon ledge

    i am quite a fan of FEO actually...haha

    hate those developers tat does trick/cheat include big big planter box.,....big big aircon ledge just to make their psf looks lower...GIMMICK

    i rmb visiting a clustered housing showflat...psf looks very low 4xxpsf at tat time...BUT, they actually include inaccessible roof top area into strata space! ultimate cheat!...i ask the agt how come only this project include...he say u goto maintain ur own roof top....so goto include into the total flr area
    if i am not wrong .. in HK..common lift lobby is included ..
    so if u purchase a unit say 500 sqft .. easily 50-100 is outside the main door ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    if i am not wrong .. in HK..common lift lobby is included ..
    so if u purchase a unit say 500 sqft .. easily 50-100 is outside the main door ..
    reminds me of a question i always not sure of:

    is the lift area included in the strata space for those units with pte lift? or depends on project?

    some agt say yes...some say no...

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    Rent 3 Bedders then can still rent out room by room and partition living & dinning into 4 rooms lagi better in the surburb (since no strict enforcement expected)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    i agree with a lot of what is being said in this article. I am just waiting to see how MM units in prime districts like Espada and Illuminaire will do when they TOP. I fully agree that MM units in suburban areas make little sense for rental yield when renting a 3 bedder already cost little.

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    What are the reasons? Care to share share? (your views may become the topic for next news article!)

    Quote Originally Posted by devilplate
    bopian la...i myself also prefer new new...new stuff...registered for new iph4 oredi!

    i went to scout condos ard hillview...in the end, i will only pay for new new hillvista if i really want to invest in tat area

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    For units with private lift lobby, the lift lobby area belongs to that unit even though that area is outside your main door (yes, easily another 60-100 sqft gone!).
    For units with common lift lobby, lift lobby area is not included in the sqft of the unit. That explains why units with common lift lobby have much larger usable area than those with private lift lobby!

    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    if i am not wrong .. in HK..common lift lobby is included ..
    so if u purchase a unit say 500 sqft .. easily 50-100 is outside the main door ..

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    But Green Lodge is very old already, at 26 yrs old. Btw, I saw on PropertyGruru that there's no transactions for Green Lodge from Aug-07 till mid-09 .. is this really the case? I wonder why. All owners waiting for en-bloc so none selling?
    Anyway, the attempted en-bloc, even at the requested $135 million, works out to be less than $700psf.... saw two most recent transactions at > $700psf; why were those two buyers thinking??

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    so in time to come, owning a big condo becomes a rare commodity with the scene flooded with mm units. A number of 1700sf Greenlodge condo units are going for 1.3mil and just opposite is Terrene selling a 900sf at 1.2mil, what an irony.

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    pte lift lobby area is always included and the shaft where the lift is is obviously not.

    Quote Originally Posted by devilplate
    reminds me of a question i always not sure of:

    is the lift area included in the strata space for those units with pte lift? or depends on project?

    some agt say yes...some say no...

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    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    not that i disagree with the report ...

    some parts do make alot of sense ...


    what i cannot tahan is .. why those experts so scared ?

    why all chose not to be named ?
    becoz these experts and their companies still want to sell the MM/undesirable units and ANY other project and do not want to jepardise their chances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    if i am not wrong .. in HK..common lift lobby is included ..
    so if u purchase a unit say 500 sqft .. easily 50-100 is outside the main door ..
    yes, in HK, this is known as efficiency index. It is running at about 70%-80%, in other words, if u buy a unit of 1000 sq ft, the usable area is only 800sq ft.

    In HK, >1000 sq ft is called luxury apartment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    pte lift lobby area is always included and the shaft where the lift is is obviously not.
    i am refering to the lift shaft....some agts told me included!

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    i also heard before, but does not seem logical to me. and that is quite a lot of sq ft. i always brush it off as the agent not knowing what he/she is talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by devilplate
    i am refering to the lift shaft....some agts told me included!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    i also heard before, but does not seem logical to me. and that is quite a lot of sq ft. i always brush it off as the agent not knowing what he/she is talking about.
    dunwan to name the project....but the developer's ppl told me included....very reluctantly though...

    mabe they can choose to include or not?

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    wah so con job ah? reluctantly tell somemore. becoz if 2 bedder still included then faint liao lor. big proportion of the unit liao leh.

    Quote Originally Posted by devilplate
    dunwan to name the project....but the developer's ppl told me included....very reluctantly though...

    mabe they can choose to include or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    wah so con job ah? reluctantly tell somemore. becoz if 2 bedder still included then faint liao lor. big proportion of the unit liao leh.
    i tink around 50-100sqft rite...not too big

    better siam pte lift...unless buying big prime condo

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    yeah but not liveable area mah. and if the unit is already less than 1000sq ft, its quite significant isn't it?


    Quote Originally Posted by devilplate
    i tink around 50-100sqft rite...not too big

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    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    yeah but not liveable area mah. and if the unit is already less than 1000sq ft, its quite significant isn't it?
    it is those layout tat once open the lift...reaches ur unit....no pte lift lobby area types

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    Agree! It is amusing so many of these experts don't dare to own up. I guess what they say many not sit well with some developers who are their biggest clients. After all, imagine a "Huttons" expert speak up against the bikini units in Telok Kurau. He can be sure that The Fragrance group and roxy group will never engage them to sell their bikini homes in D15.

    In short, if they say anything against the bikini units and 99LH homes, it is a career terminating move. That's why most reports are the "huat huat huat" type, esp high-end huat type. Conflicts of interest is very prevalent in this industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    not that i disagree with the report ...

    some parts do make alot of sense ...


    what i cannot tahan is .. why those experts so scared ?

    why all chose not to be named ?

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    But the new homes all look the same.... i guess it's Singaporeans desire to conform? Look at the new homes - same white laminate kitchen, same kitchen equipment, same stupid baroque wallpaper in the MBR, same chandelier light at dining area, same sink, same contemporary sofa as everyone else. FAINT. Seems like everyone use or copy from same designer so as to conform. Get a large old home and think out of the box - design your own place to your own liking. Sometimes I go to my friend's house and ask "did u use the same designer as someone else?" because the house looks the same as everyone else. Why not a country-style kitchen or old ama retro kitchen reminiscent of good old times? Why must everyone's house look the same. Why the strong need to conform?

    Quote Originally Posted by devilplate
    bopian la...i myself also prefer new new...new stuff...registered for new iph4 oredi!

    i went to scout condos ard hillview...in the end, i will only pay for new new hillvista if i really want to invest in tat area

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Falcon
    But the new homes all look the same.... i guess it's Singaporeans desire to conform? Look at the new homes - same white laminate kitchen, same kitchen equipment, same stupid baroque wallpaper in the MBR, same chandelier light at dining area, same sink, same contemporary sofa as everyone else. FAINT. Seems like everyone use or copy from same designer so as to conform. Get a large old home and think out of the box - design your own place to your own liking. Sometimes I go to my friend's house and ask "did u use the same designer as someone else?" because the house looks the same as everyone else. Why not a country-style kitchen or old ama retro kitchen reminiscent of good old times? Why must everyone's house look the same. Why the strong need to conform?
    no one size fits all investment...sames goes to our gf/wifey yay?

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